On 15 Aug 2002 at 13:58, Jonathan Davis wrote:
I feel no need to reply to Hermit's post; I feel that Jonathan has
sufficiently eviscerated it here.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hermit" <hidden@lucifer.com>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:13 AM
> Subject: Re:virus: Talking Genocide
>
>
> >
> > [Joe Dees] First, Hermit, I wonder why Pol Pot, Rwanda and Armenia
> > were
> not mentioned. Just curious.
> >
> > [Hermit] Genocide. Horrible. Not perpetrated by supposedly civilized
> states.
>
> Is this an admission that the Israelis are more civilized (and
> consequently more responsible) than their Palestinian enemies?
>
>
> > [Joe Dees] Second, and more germane, the total Palestinian death
> > toll, in
> both intifadehs, has been in the low thousands;
> >
> > [Hermit] A better picture might be grasped when we realize that
> > Israel has
> been almost continuously at war throughout its existence....
>
> Looks like a knee to the windpipe to me....
>
> SNIP
>
> > [Hermit] Or 4:1 for the entire period.
>
> Joe was talking about contemporary figures. You are unilaterally
> changing the period of reference to try and falsify his claim.
>
>
>
> > [Hermit] Now looking at current figures (i.e. 2nd Intifada):
> > Palestinians Killed by Israelis: 2126
> > Israelis killed by Palestinians: 299
> >
> > [Hermit] Or 7:1 for the current period. This is a disturbing trend.
>
> No, this is a disturbing trend:
>
> Israelis killed by suicide bombings alone in Israel:-
>
> 2000 - 4
> 2001 - 75
> 2002 - 165 (so far)
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm
>
>
> > [Hermit] An analysis of suicide bombing I have performed, reflecting
> > only
> bombings where at least one victim other than the bomber occurred,
> there have been a >total of 32. Here is their distribution.
>
> > 01 Mar 2 (4th Netanya) (28th Mifgash Hashalom gas station, East of
> > Kfar
> Saba)
> > 01 Apr 1 (22nd Kfar Saba)
> > 01 May 1 (18th Netanya)
> > 01 Jun 1 (1st Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv)
> > 01 Jul
> > 01 Aug 1 (9th Jerusalem)
> > 01 Sep
> > 01 Oct 1 (7th Kibbutz Sheluhot - Beit She'an Valley)
> > 01 Nov 1 (29th Hadera)
> > 01 Dec 2 (1st West Jerusalem) (2nd Haifa)
> > 02 Jan 1 (27th West Jerusalem)
> > 02 Feb
> > 02 Mar 9 (2nd Beit Yisrael - West Jerusalem) (5th Afula - Northern
> Israel) (9th - cafe West Jerusalem) (20th bus on Wadi Ara road) (21st
> West Jerusalem) (27th Park hotel in Netanya) (30th Kiryat Yovel - West
> Jerusalem) (30th Tel Aviv) (31st cafe in Haifa) > 02 Apr 2 (10th Yagur
> junction, near Haifa) (12th Market entrance - West Jerusalem) > 02 May
> 4 (6th Rishon Letzion, Central Israel) (19th Netanya) (22nd Rishon
> Letzion , Central Israel) (27th Petah Tikva, Central Israel) > 02 Jun
> 2 (6th Herzeliya, in Central Israel) (18th West Jerusalem) > 02 Jul 2
> (17th Tel Aviv) (31st Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus, West
> Jerusalem) > 02 Aug 1 (4th Bus, Meron Jucntion - Northern Israel)
>
> Please share your sources so we can valibate, anayse and interpret
> ourselves.
>
>
> > [Hermit] I would suggest that this distribution indicates that
> > Israeli
> terrorism and military action against the Palestinian population has
> seemingly not prevented >bombings unless you wish to offer proof to
> the contrary.
>
> This if faulty reasoning at its worst. One there is no Israeli
> terrorism, so don't try and sneak it in as an implied premise.
>
> Only Palestinians can stop attempting to carry out suicide bombing.
> All that Israeli can and is doing is resists the Palestinian attempts.
> This is what Israeli military action does. The Palestinians have
> ramped up their efforts since Sept 11th , the Israelis have reacted
> accordingly. The BBC reports that for every bomber that succeeds there
> are several that are caught.
>
>
> >On the other hand, as in all terrorism, police work and intelligence
> >has.
>
> Indeed. Mossad is certainly working away too. Why do you think there
> are collaborators?
>
>
>
> > [Joe Dees] Saddam Hussein killed more Kurds than that in ONE
> > chemical
> weapons attack on a Kurdish village, while suffering losses in the
> teens, not in the thousands, as the Israelis have also lost through
> the two intifadehs. There's no 3:1 ratio going on there; more like
> 3000:1. > > [Hermit] Firstly, as shown here, your numbers are
> hopelessly out of line with all other estimates I have found (one
> night of research later).
>
>
> Show us your sources please.
>
>
> > So perhaps you should now reveal your sources.
>
> What do you need confirmed? Numbers of Iraqi Kurds killed by Saddam's
> regime in the chemical attack on 16 March 1988? According to the BBC
> and other there were 5,000 dead and 7,000 .
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1877161.stm
>
> >Secondly, we should not forget that he used US supplied chemical
> >weapons
> diverted from killing Iranians.
>
> Allegedly. It is also irrelevant.
>
> >If they had been used as intended, nobody would have said a word.
>
> You know this huh? How? Please elaborate.
>
>
> SNIP
>
>
> >
> > [Hermit] And none of these death tolls take infant mortality
> > differentials
> into account (and the 6:1 ratio between Israeli Jew and Palestinian
> adds up quickly) and >they don't take into account the nearly 5
> million Palestinians in camps around the Middle East - all with the
> right to return - agreed to in Oslo - which is denied to >them. Thats
> ethnic cleansing. When do we plan on attacking Tel Aviv?
>
> Another dollop of sophistic crap. Let me dry it out and blow it away.
>
> 1. Infant mortality. You are trying somehow to blame Israel for this.
> What is your reasoning? Please be explicit. Is Israel responsible for
> the infant morality rate in all its neighbours? It is just that the
> mortality rates for all the local Arabs appears to be very similar.
> The Israelis being more civilised probably take better care of their
> children and have developed better health care programmes than their
> neighbours. Is this their fault for being superior?
>
> 2. Refugees. Those 5 million refugees only want a piece of Israel. Why
> not a bit of Jordan or Lebanon or Syria too? The Basque recognise that
> the Basque region is divided between several countries - they want it
> all back. The Kurds too. The Palestinians just want Israel - tiny
> little Israel.
>
> Please post evidence that the 5 million refugees want to immigrate,
> and why - given that the Oslo accords conditions have been abandoned
> by the Palestinians - the Israeli should comply with it if they were
> asked to.
>
>
>
> > [Joe Dees] And still you embrace Saddam and condemn Israel. That
> > says more
> about you than it does about either of them.
> >
> > [Hermit] Your argument too weak to stand without lies?
>
> Ad hominem boy gets nasty.
>
>
> >The fact that you continue to attempt to assert that I embrace Saddam
> >says
> more about you than about me.
>
> Do you embrace anything Hermit? Is there a nation state, group, set of
> ideas, that you are loyal to and embrace? Just curious. You seem to
> spend a lot of time criticising you adoptive homeland. In fact I am
> most surprised you chose to make your home there (and pay taxes to its
> government) as you clearly despise it.
>
>
> > [Hermit] The fact that I condemn Israel - and the United States -
> > for
> their actions in the Middle East - says more about the fact that these
> supposedly civilised >countries blather about "moral actions",
> claiming moral superiority while engaging in genocide.
>
> Oh boy, that word being abused again. Here are some REAL genocides,
> pogroms and massacres.:
>
> l. Over 10,000 thousand Aleuts killed by Russians - Aleutian Islands
> 1745-70 2. Several thousand Beothuk Indians killed by the French and
> Micmawas - Newfoundland 1497-1829 3. Over 1,000,000 American Indians
> killed by white Setters - US 1620-1890 4. Over 1,000,000 Caribbean
> Indians killed by Spaniards - West Indies 1992 - 1890 5. Over
> 1,000,000 Indians killed by Spaniards - Central & South America
> 1498-1824 6. Over 10,000 Araucarian Indians killed by Argentinians -
> Argentina 1870's 7. Over 10,000 Protestants killed by Catholics -
> France 1572 8. Over 10,000 Bushmen & Hottentots (Khoin) killed by
> Boers and Bantu's - South Africa 1652-1795 9. Over 100,000 Aborigines
> killed by white settlers - Australia 1788 - 1928 10.Several thousand
> Tasmanians killed by white settlers - Tasmania 1800-1876 11. Several
> thousand Morioris killed by Maoris - Chatham Islands 1835 12. Over 4
> Million Jews, gypsies, Poles, Russians killed by Nazis - occupied
> Europe 1939 - 45 13. Over 100,000 Serbs killed by Croats - Yugoslavia
> 1941- 45 14. Over 10,000 Polish officers killed by Russians - Katyn
> 1940 15. Over 10,000 Jews killed by Ukrainians - Ukraine 1917-20 16.
> Over 10,000,000 political opponents killed by Russian communists -
> Russia 1929-39 17. Over 100,000 ethnic minorities killed by ethnic
> Russians - Russia 1943 -46 18. Ovr 1,000,000 Armenians killed by Turks
> - Armenia 1915 19. Over 10,000 Herero's killed by Germans - Southwest
> Africa 1904 20. Over 100,000 Hindus, Moslems killed by Moslems, Hindus
> - India, Pakistan 1947 - 48 21. Over 10,000 Brazilian Indians killed
> by Brazilians - Brazil 1957-68 22. Several thousand Ache Indians
> killed by Paraguayans - Paraguay 1970s 23. Over 10,000 Argentine
> civilians killed by Argentine army - Argentina 1976-83 24. Over 10,000
> Moslems, Christians killed by Christians, Moslems - Lebanon 1975-90
> 25. Several thousand Ibos killed by North Nigerians - Nigeria 1966 26.
> Several thousand opponents killed by dictatorship - Equatorial Guinea
> 1977-79 27. Several thousand opponents killed by Emperor Bokassa -
> Central African Republic 1978-79 28. Over 100,000 South Sudanese
> killed by North Sudanese - Sudan 1955-72 29. Over 100,000 Ugandans
> killed by Idi Amin - Uganda 1971-79 30. Over 10,000 Tutsi killed by
> Hutu's - Rwanda 1962-63 31. 100,000 Hutu killed by Tutsi's - Burundi
> 1972-73 32. Several thousand Arabs killed by Blacks - Zanzibar 1964
> 33. Several thousand Tamils, Singhalese killed by Sinhalese, Tamils -
> Sri Lanka 1985 34. Over 1,000,000 Bengalis killed by Pakistan army -
> Bangladesh 1971 35. Over 1,000,000 Cambodians killed by the Khmer
> Rouge - Cambodia 1975-79 36. Over 100,000 communists & Chinese killed
> by Indonesians - Indonesia 1965-67 37. Tens of thousands of Timorese
> killed by Indonesians - East Timor 1975-76
>
> This list stops at 1990 therefore does not include the Balkan Wars,
> Kosovo, the 800,000 Tutsi's murdered by Hutus in 1994, or recent
> activity in East Timor.
>
> Please explain - now in context of REAL genocides - how you can
> conscionably use this potent word so wantonly?
>
>
> >The stench of Genocide is bad enough without attempting to deodorize
> >it.
> Like a cat trying to cover its poop on a vinyl floor, or attempting to
> cover up racist >bigotry by asserting that it is just a cultural
> difference.
>
> I could only read this with one eye, so embarrassed was I to read this
> empurpled and declamatory prose. Waves of cringing are still
> travelling through me.
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
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