[Joe Dees] First, Hermit, I wonder why Pol Pot, Rwanda and Armenia were not mentioned. Just curious.
[Hermit] Genocide. Horrible. Not perpetrated by supposedly civilized states.
[Joe Dees] Second, and more germane, the total Palestinian death toll, in both intifadehs, has been in the low thousands;
[Hermit] A better picture might be grasped when we realize that Israel has been almost continuously at war throughout its existence.... And we can play with periods to prove anything we like.
War of Independence, 1948; Suez War, 1956; Israeli-Egyptian War, 1969-70; Yom Kippur War, 1973. Excluding the Lebanon incursion, which was not so much a war as a rout, that takes us to 43,000 to 70,000 military deaths and 51,000 civilians. Of that, Israel's losses were 6,800-11,100 killed, or a little less than 10% of the total.
[Hermit] In Lebanon, Israel and her cronies are estimated to have killed around 150,000. Official Israeli losses were 657 dead. Around 250:1.
[Hermit] Looking at the First Intifada Dec. 1987 - Dec 1992: 1,121 Palestinians killed by Israelis; 103 Israelis killed by Palestinians Again about 10:1
[Hermit] Looking at the entire period from the First Intifada to the Second 9 Dec 1987-31 Aug 2001 , B'Tselem[http://www.btselem.org/Files/site/english/data/Total_Casualties.asp] estimates deaths at (cross-ethnic killings only):
Palestinians Security forces: 102 Civilians: 1943 TOTAL: 2045
Israelis Security forces: 193 Civilians: 383 TOTAL: 576
TOTAL Security forces: 295 Civilians: 2326 TOTAL: 2621
[Hermit] Or 4:1 for the entire period.
[Hermit] Now looking at current figures (i.e. 2nd Intifada):
Palestinians Killed by Israelis: 2126
Israelis killed by Palestinians: 299
[Hermit] Or 7:1 for the current period. This is a disturbing trend.
[Hermit] An analysis of suicide bombing I have performed, reflecting only bombings where at least one victim other than the bomber occured, there have been a total of 32. Here is their distribution.
01 Mar 2 (4th Netanya) (28th Mifgash Hashalom gas station, East of Kfar Saba)
01 Apr 1 (22nd Kfar Saba)
01 May 1 (18th Netanya)
01 Jun 1 (1st Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv)
01 Jul
01 Aug 1 (9th Jerusalem)
01 Sep
01 Oct 1 (7th Kibbutz Sheluhot - Beit She'an Valley)
01 Nov 1 (29th Hadera)
01 Dec 2 (1st West Jerusalem) (2nd Haifa)
02 Jan 1 (27th West Jerusalem)
02 Feb
02 Mar 9 (2nd Beit Yisrael - West Jerusalem) (5th Afula - Northern Israel) (9th - cafe West Jerusalem) (20th bus on Wadi Ara road) (21st West Jerusalem) (27th Park hotel in Netanya) (30th Kiryat Yovel - West Jerusalem) (30th Tel Aviv) (31st cafe in Haifa)
02 Apr 2 (10th Yagur junction, near Haifa) (12th Market entrance - West Jerusalem)
02 May 4 (6th Rishon Letzion, Central Israel) (19th Netanya) (22nd Rishon Letzion , Central Israel) (27th Petah Tikva, Central Israel)
02 Jun 2 (6th Herzeliya, in Central Israel) (18th West Jerusalem)
02 Jul 2 (17th Tel Aviv) (31st Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus, West Jerusalem)
02 Aug 1 (4th Bus, Meron Jucntion - Northern Israel)
[Hermit] I would suggest that this distribution indicates that Israeli terrorism and military action against the Palestinian population has seemingly not prevented bombings unless you wish to offer proof to the contrary. On the other hand, as in all terrorism, police work and intelligence has.
[Joe Dees] Saddam Hussein killed more Kurds than that in ONE chemical weapons attack on a Kurdish village, while suffering losses in the teens, not in the thousands, as the Israelis have also lost through the two intifadehs. There's no 3:1 ratio going on there; more like 3000:1.
[Hermit] Firstly, as shown here, your numbers are hopelessly out of line with all other estimates I have found (one night of research later). So perhaps you should now reveal your sources. Secondly, we should not forget that he used US supplied chemical weapons diverted from killing Iranians. If they had been used as intended, nobody would have said a word. Indeed George Bush I overrode Congress to continue supplying arms to him. "It is becoming increasingly clear, that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into the aggressive power that the United States ultimately had to destroy." -- Ted Koppel, NightLine, ABC News 06/09/1992
Before the war the U.S. was a "friend" of Iraq, giving it intelligence on Iran, "agricultural" credit (which Saddam would convert for other uses), shielding it from criticism at the U.N., reducing its "rogue" status (to allow US defense companies to sell it weapons), even gave it biological weapons (form a Maryland company). In 1984 when the U.N. confirmed Iraq was using mustard and nerve gasses against Iranian "human wave" attacks in border war, the U.S. State Department issued only a mild condemnation, and went on to restore diplomatic relations with Iraq, in addition to opposing U.N. action against Iraq. In 1988 Iraq used chemical weapons again, against Kurdish minority in Halabjah, but the U.S. continued to maintain "agricultural" credits with Iraq, and President Reagan even blocked congressional sanctions against Iraq. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/index_iraq.html Again I recommend this site. Somebody has done the reseach. Well worth reading.
[Hermit] Then too, we have to ask "compared with what?" As Ross Perot put it (3rd Presidential Debate 10/19/1992), "We told him [Saddam Hussein] that we wouldn't get involved with his border dispute ..... We told him he could take the northern part of Kuwait, [where the oil fields are located] and when he took the whole thing, we went nuts." Then we killed over 100'000 Iraqui troops and over 15'000 civilians. Then too, the Turks are estimated to have killed 250'000 Kurds during the first Kurdish uprising.
[Hermit] And none of these death tolls take infant mortality differentials into account (and the 6:1 ratio between Israeli Jew and Palestinian adds up quickly) and they don't take into account the nearly 5 million Palestinians in camps around the Middle East - all with the right to return - agreed to in Oslo - which is denied to them. Thats ethnic cleansing. When do we plan on attacking Tel Aviv?
[Joe Dees] And still you embrace Saddam and condemn Israel. That says more about you than it does about either of them.
[Hermit] Your argument too weak to stand without lies? The fact that you continue to attempt to assert that I embrace Saddam says more about you than about me.
[Hermit] The fact that I condemn Israel - and the United States - for their actions in the Middle East - says more about the fact that these supposedly civilised countries blather about "moral actions", claiming moral superiority while engaging in genocide. The stench of Genocide is bad enough without attempting to deodorize it. Like a cat trying to cover its poop on a vinyl floor, or attempting to cover up racist bigotry by asserting that it is just a cultural difference.
PS another good source: http://www.iwpr.net
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=26109>
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