On 24 Jul 2002 at 21:07, rhinoceros wrote:
>
> [Joe Dees quoting Andy Lamey]
> What bothers many critics is how postmodernism defies
> elementary logic.
> Consider the statement "Everything is subjective." This
> idea is nonsensical, anti-postmodernist Thomas Nagel has
> written, "for it would itself have to be either subjective or
> objective. But it can't be objective, since in that case it
> would be false if true. And it can't be subjective, because
> then it would not rule out any objective claim, including the
> claim that it is objectively false."
>
> [rhinoceros]
> Although I don't care much for postmodernism, this line of
> reasoning seems flawed. If everything is subjective, then
> this statement is subjective too; then there is no such a
> thing as an objective claim that this statement is objectively
> false.
>
> Of course then logic would be subjective too, so you just
> listen to the BS anyone has to say, you "interpret the text"
> by applying your subjective logic to it, and accept it as true
> or not.
>
> I don't think postmodernism can be refuted by pure logic.
> Perhaps arguments against its utility and its practical
> implications are more likely to make someone "not to
> choose" it.
>
What Thomas Nagel submits the truth-claim "everything is subjective"
to is a combination of the "two horns of a dilemma" argument (either the
statement itself is objective or it is subjective; there is no third-term
wiggle room either between or beyond the touching horns of these two
inclusive alternatives) combined with a demonstration of the self-
contradictory nature of each. Any objective claim that 'everything
(including, necessarily, the statement itself) is subjective" refutes itself
by its own objective existence, yet to relegate the claim itself to
subjectivity removes any claim to truth from the statement itself and
relegates it to opinion, or belief. He thus reveals the statement to be a
logical clone of the statement "this statement is false". If such a
statement is true, then it must be false, but if it is false, then it must be
true, and so on the ad nauseum ad infinitum; the merry-go-rould dual-
periodicity regress is infinite, thus revealing the statement itself to be
neither true not false, but meaningless. Likewise, if everything is
subjective, then so must the statement be; thus, contra the statement,
some things could be objective, including the "everything is subjective'
statement, but if it is objective, then it cannot be true, and on and on
and on...
>
> [Joe Dees quoting Andy Lamey]
> Now Fish is involved in another contretemps. In the
> current Harper's, he attacks journalists who criticized
> postmodernism following September 11. Writing in The
> New York Times on Sept. 22, Edward Rothstein lamented
> that "postmodernists challenge assertions that truth and
> ethical judgment have any objective validity." Surely the
> terrorist attacks were indisputably wrong and show the
> poverty of such relativism, Rothstein and others argued.
>
> [rhinoceros]
> Again, although I don't care much for postmodernism,
> ethical judgement in particular *is* highly relativistic and
> culturally tainted. So, what exactly was ethically wrong
> with September 11? I guess it was bombing unsuspecting
> citizens where they live or work, and this seems to be an
> objective ethical judgement in the context of most cultures
> today.
>
> Objective, but not absolute. I have heard several people
> using this ethical argument, and at the same time arguing
> that "collateral damages" in Afghanistan are a necessary
> evil justified by a "good cause" -- making the world safe
> (which I don't think is going to happen).
>
> That said, I think critique based on emotional factors is not
> exactly honest.
>
The people killed in the WTC atrocity were not collateral damage; they
were the targets. If they weren't, then a phone call could have cleared
the buildings before the planes flew in.
>
> ----
> This message was posted by rhinoceros to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=25785>
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