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sodom <Sodom@ma.ultranet.com> wrote,=20
apparently without thinking too much about it:
> Andreas Engstr=F6m wrote:=20
> >
> > Tracy Yucikas <tyucikas@cts.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > oh gosh, never thought I'd play the devil's disciple and
> > > defend a biblical
> > > point
> > > of view, but here goes ....
> > >
> > > "In the beginning the world was without form and void ...."
> > > is how Genesis 1,1 starts out.
> > >
> > > Amazingly close to the default conditions which one could imagine
> > > existing prior to the "Big Bang". (without form and void)
> > >
>=20
> Umm - no. Although it is popular to think so. you cannot use the word
> "world" as it is cortridictory to "without form and void". The =
concept
> for "world" could not have existed at that state. Read=20
> further down and
> I will show some flaws with the other few verses mentioned.
Here you are responding to the correct speaker. And, of course,=20
you're right.
=20
> > > Although I fer sure take issue with a lot of stuff that
> > > comes later,
> > > I can find no fault with how the first book of the bible starts.
> > Just
> > > need to speak out for truth (as I see it at least).
> > >
> > > ...Tracy Yucikas (speaking for non-verbal memes)
> >
> > Truth as you see it seems to be a bit incorrect.
> >
> > If one is going to correct someone, one should make darn sure
> > one's correction actually is correct..
> >
> > The following are the first three verses of Genesis,
> > chapter 1 (King James Version):
> >
> > 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
>=20
> If the Earth was created first, at the same time as the heavens (It =
is
> irrelevant if heaven means "space" or "place of immortal=20
> delight") then
> the Earth is the oldest entity in the Universe (aside from God) - the
> problem here is that since we know that the rest of the Universe is =
at
> least 12 Billion years old - probably closer to 18 billion - the =
Earth
> would have been destroyed long ago when the orbit of the moon=20
> decayed to
> the point that collision was imminent billions of years ago.=20
> (unless the
> moon didnt exist). Also, there is not physical evidence on this =
planet
> (except for meteorites) that points to the Earth being any older than
> 3.5 billion yrs old.
I know.
=20
> > 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness
> > was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the waters.
>=20
> Without the sun, there can be no water, it would be frozen to=20
> just above
> absolute zero - it should say "moved apun the face of the ice".
Guess what? I know.
> > 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
> >
>=20
> I assume that at this stage the sun was created?=20
> Unfortunately, there is
> another paradox here. Our sun is young. only 5 Billion years=20
> old. If it
> was created before the stars (the stars of course, all 100 gillion of
> them were later created for us to have astrology and to navigate =
boats
> by) which we see most them billions of years before our sun=20
> was started
> by God.
Yes, _I know_.
> > So, Genesis 1.1 doesn't start out as you claim, but exactly
> > like Sodom quoted it. In the _next_ verse the phrase "without
> > form, and void" occurs. In the same verse "the spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the water". Not a very accurate description of
> > pre-"Big Bang" conditions, if you ask me.
> >
> > Not that I agree with Sodom either.. I'm sure that some verses in
> > Genesis regarding reality that doesn't conflict with science.
> > For instance, how about Genesis 1:20?
> >
> > 20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the
> > moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly
> > above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
> >
>=20
> Now that is cheating, but perhaps you didnt read my post a while back
> that effectivly there is no magic in writing down things that can be
> easily verified by everyone anywhere. These things actually exist and
> are verifiable - there is no magic necessary for a novel to=20
> mention New
> York City. Mentioning it's existence does not mean creating it's
> existence. But I know you meant well.
No, I didn't. I meant to make fun of the concept of trying to=20
find scientific truth in Genesis. Which should be very obvious.
And what you were asking for was _one statement about reality in =
Genesis=20
that didn't conflict with science_. I provided you with one.
Turn up your sensitivity to irony, please.
=20
> > Aside from that "God" is supposed to have said this, certainly
> > there are living creatures in the waters and birds flying above
> > us? See? Genesis is a source of infinite wisdom.. :-)
I thought that calling the blatantly obvious "infinite wisdom"=20
should be a sufficient indicator of irony. Just to be safe,=20
I added a smiley. Apparently even that is not enough. What am=20
I supposed to do? Use <IRONY></IRONY> tags? Perhaps something=20
for the standardization people that are working on the next
HTML standard to think about..=20
> > -Andreas Engstrom
> > (Great Randomness)
>=20
> in my humble opinion, the Bible is make believe - hand crafted to
> devour the minds of the fearful (I put that there for Tim)
>=20
> Sodom
> Bill Roh
In my not so humble opinion, I completely agree with you.
What amazes me is that you couldn't detect that.
I still think that Genesis is a source of <IRONY>infinite=20
wisdom</IRONY>.
-Andreas Engstrom
(Great Randomness)
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
sodom <Sodom@ma.ultranet.com> wrote,
apparently without thinking too much about =
it:
> Andreas Engstr=F6m wrote:
> >
> > Tracy Yucikas <tyucikas@cts.com> =
wrote:
> > >
> > > oh gosh, never thought I'd play the =
devil's disciple and
> > > defend a biblical
> > > point
> > > of view, but here goes ....
> > >
> > > "In the beginning the world was =
without form and void ...."
> > > =
is how Genesis 1,1 starts out.
> > >
> > > Amazingly close to the default =
conditions which one could imagine
> > > existing prior to the "Big =
Bang". (without form and void)
> > >
>
> Umm - no. Although it is popular to think so. =
you cannot use the word
> "world" as it is cortridictory to =
"without form and void". The concept
> for "world" could not have existed at =
that state. Read
> further down and
> I will show some flaws with the other few =
verses mentioned.
Here you are responding to the correct speaker. And, =
of course,
you're right.
> > > Although I fer sure =
take issue with a lot of stuff that
> > > comes later,
> > > I can find no fault with how the =
first book of the bible starts.
> > Just
> > > need to speak out for truth (as I see =
it at least).
> > >
> > > ...Tracy Yucikas (speaking for =
non-verbal memes)
> >
> > Truth as you see it seems to be a bit =
incorrect.
> >
> > If one is going to correct someone, one =
should make darn sure
> > one's correction actually is =
correct..
> >
> > The following are the first three verses =
of Genesis,
> > chapter 1 (King James Version):
> >
> > 1. In the beginning God created the heaven =
and the earth.
>
> If the Earth was created first, at the same =
time as the heavens (It is
> irrelevant if heaven means "space" or =
"place of immortal
> delight") then
> the Earth is the oldest entity in the Universe =
(aside from God) - the
> problem here is that since we know that the =
rest of the Universe is at
> least 12 Billion years old - probably closer to =
18 billion - the Earth
> would have been destroyed long ago when the =
orbit of the moon
> decayed to
> the point that collision was imminent billions =
of years ago.
> (unless the
> moon didnt exist). Also, there is not physical =
evidence on this planet
> (except for meteorites) that points to the =
Earth being any older than
> 3.5 billion yrs old.
I know.
> > 2. And the earth was without form, and =
void; and darkness
> > was upon the face of the =
deep. And the Spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the =
waters.
>
> Without the sun, there can be no water, it =
would be frozen to
> just above
> absolute zero - it should say "moved apun =
the face of the ice".
Guess what? I know.
> > 3. And God said, Let there be light: and =
there was light.
> >
>
> I assume that at this stage the sun was =
created?
> Unfortunately, there is
> another paradox here. Our sun is young. only 5 =
Billion years
> old. If it
> was created before the stars (the stars of =
course, all 100 gillion of
> them were later created for us to have =
astrology and to navigate boats
> by) which we see most them billions of years =
before our sun
> was started
> by God.
Yes, _I know_.
> > So, Genesis 1.1 doesn't start out as you =
claim, but exactly
> > like Sodom quoted it. In the _next_ verse =
the phrase "without
> > form, and void" occurs. In the same =
verse "the spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the water". Not a =
very accurate description of
> > pre-"Big Bang" conditions, if =
you ask me.
> >
> > Not that I agree with Sodom either.. I'm =
sure that some verses in
> > Genesis regarding reality that doesn't =
conflict with science.
> > For instance, how about Genesis =
1:20?
> >
> > 20. And God said, Let the waters bring =
forth abundantly the
> > moving creature =
that hath life, and fowl that may fly
> > above the earth in =
the open firmament of heaven.
> >
>
> Now that is cheating, but perhaps you didnt =
read my post a while back
> that effectivly there is no magic in writing =
down things that can be
> easily verified by everyone anywhere. These =
things actually exist and
> are verifiable - there is no magic necessary =
for a novel to
> mention New
> York City. Mentioning it's existence does not =
mean creating it's
> existence. But I know you meant well.
No, I didn't. I meant to make fun of the concept of =
trying to
find scientific truth in Genesis. Which should be ver=
y obvious.
And what you were asking for was _one statement about =
reality in Genesis
that didn't conflict with science_. I provided you =
with one.
Turn up your sensitivity to irony, please.
> > Aside from that "God" is =
supposed to have said this, certainly
> > there are living creatures in the waters =
and birds flying above
> > us? See? Genesis is a source of infinite =
wisdom.. :-)
I thought that calling the blatantly obvious =
"infinite wisdom"
should be a sufficient indicator of irony. Just to =
be safe,
I added a smiley. Apparently even that is not =
enough. What am
I supposed to do? Use <IRONY></IRONY> =
tags? Perhaps something
for the standardization people that are working on =
the next
HTML standard to think about..
> > -Andreas Engstrom
> > (Great Randomness)
>
> in my humble opinion, the Bible is =
make believe - hand crafted to
> devour the minds of the fearful (I put that =
there for Tim)
>
> Sodom
> Bill Roh
In my not so humble opinion, I completely agree with =
you.
What amazes me is that you couldn't detect =
that.
I still think that Genesis is a source of =
<IRONY>infinite
wisdom</IRONY>.
-Andreas Engstrom
(Great Randomness)