Re: virus: RE: Abortion (formerly AIDS Meme)

ken sartor (
Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:45:44 -0600

At 08:44 PM 10/29/96 +0000, Hakeeb A. Nandalal wrote:
>Ken Sartor wrote :-
>> ..............
>> ..............
>> No, but neither would i support a church "Order of the Sacred Egg".
>> I do not see abortion opponents as having tyrannical sentiments.
>> If the government was to allow infanticide during the first 13 (i like
>> odd numbers ;) ) months after birth, would you oppose or support this?
>> Why?
>> Perhaps some subjects are difficult to come to agreement on? Neither
>> side dishonest or evil or tyrannical - just disagreeing.
>The point of the right to abortion is the privacy of a woman's body.
Killing someone after birth, regardless of
>how many months have passed, is a different issue entirely as in capital
>Slavery was abolished because society (not the slaves) decided that it was
unacceptable to own someone.
>Similarly, it is wrong for the State or anyone else for that matter to tell
a woman "you have no say in what
>goes on in your body". Every tenet of our civilization points to the
sovereignty of the individual's body. I
>have not found a single cause for forcing a woman to have a child which she
does not want which is so critical
>to the State's interest that it necessitates enforcement by the law. All
anti-abortion laws previously in
>effect were the result of legislation passed by Christian legislatures with
Christian popular support.
>Every anti-abortion group, to the best of my knowledge, is rooted in
religion. There are no valid secular
>reasons to prevent abortions. By thinking of a fetus as a baby, we are
using hindsight, we see a happy child
>playing in a field and our parental instincts cause us to be repulsed by
the thought of then "killing" that
>child. This is crooked thinking which must be straightened out by clear
logic : a fetus is not a child, its
>rights do not exceed the mother's. To give a fetus superior rights, we're
declaring the mother's rights null
>and void. In every other aspect of civilization the rights of a woman are
paramount except when she is
>pregnant. To me, this sound like a form of punishment for an unfortunate
biological-function albatross.
>Have you ever seen a religious fanatic shouting in the face of a scared
woman trying to access an abortion
>clinic? Would you say that that behavior is a tad tyrannical? If all the
anti-abortionists did was stay home
>and brood, I wouldn't even bring up the subject. The problem lies with
people being physically obstructed and
>mentally abused. The famous "gag" order preventing federally funded clinics
from advising women on abortion is
>part of the abuse.
>The abortion issue to me is pure memetics : any time a membot seeks to
inflict his beliefs on others even when
>it's clear those views are not appreciated, we have tyranny. When the
membots start influencing the laws, we
>have State-sanctioned tyranny.

Hmmm... what is left to say? Clearly there can be no argument that
abortion is simply a matter of a womens right to control her own
body, and any civilized person must respect that choice. Moreover,
to object would entail being a member of a religious group (does this
list count?) since there are "no valid secular reasons to prevent
abortions". To oppose abortion rights would also necessarily
"give a fetus superior rights" while "declaring the mother's rights null
and void".

Where does this leave us? Are we to now assume that all people on
the anti-abortion side are evil, uncivilized, ignorant, mean,
etc etc? Do they "just not understand"? Is the issue really cut
and dry?

What are we to make of those who, after hearing your arguments, still
do not agree with your point of view (which is, after all, simply
"the facts")?

My opposition is not with you, or this subject. Rather it is with
viewpoints that are so firmly entrenched that they do not allow
for other points of view to be examined. This causes an us vs them
mentality which creates strife needlessly. It is what i dislike
about some religious groups. It is what i dislike about the
political correctness movement in the states. It is what i dislike
about each of the extreme sides of the abortion issue (what the heck,
i argue it both ways ;) ).