Re: virus: Martyrdom

Peter =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D6kner?= (
Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:52:26 +0200

David Leeper asks:

>> I remember reading about how
>> the first heads of christianity in Rome had to change their message to
>> their flock, people were so eager to get to guaranteed heaven they would
>> take any chance of martyrdom. Apperently it was tuch and go there for a
>> while; if there was going to be any christians left.
>The source of this information?

Sorry, that was fifteen years ago so all i remember about the book is that
the subject-matter was 'the history of the idea of suicide', and No, it was
not written by a Swede ; )

>(...) I think there's a difference between respecting the dead and a living
>person wanting to be a martyr. Perhaps this applies the "Young Palestine"
>as well...? Notice
>that both the IRA and the PLO are defending their own land from unwanted
>outside domination.
>Their backs are up against a wall. Would they be so passionate if the
>stakes were lower?

Well, their religious leaders, who are the ones that installs this program,
might not be. KMO described the programming of the Palestinian kamakazi
bombers. I was thinking more of a recent documentary interwiew of 10-15
year-olds who were eager to go up against armed and firing soldiers,
themselves carrying only rocks. They did not seem to concerned that their
rocks would have very little effect, they had heroism and the rewards in
paradise as their prime objective.

>I think this is the way out of this example of the martyrdom meme. Here
>Martyrdom is the word
>used to describe the meme "Desperation". In America the Black community
>uses the word
>"Revolution" to describe the same meme. This comes to mind because there
>was a riot last night
>in the town I live in (Clearwater, Fl.).

Or it's the opposite, an example of looking for rewards here on earth,
rather than waiting for them to come to you in some shady heaven.

>> And there is always the 'normal' soldier risking death to defend the meme=
>> of his elders.
>I would call this "courage" and "patriotism", but not "martyrdom".

Why not? Same-same, isn't it?, as long as you are prepared to kill and die
by the judgement of others.

>I don't think the meme "Martyrdom" is as powerful as it seems at first.
>In previous postings, I
>presented uses of it from the point of view of Zen and of Cohesive
>Mathematics. Outside of
>these limited and rare situations, it seems Martyrdom is a dangerous
>operation with little
>chance of success.

Well, it gave us christianity, and thats still around, if diminishing.

>Of course, we could always test this theory. Mr. McFadzean, would you
>care to volunteer? ;->

It does seem like the logical course of action for one of them level-3
minds, doesn't it? But then I wouldn't know, would I ; )

<<<<<<<<<<< Peter =D6kner >>>>>>>>>>
<<<<< >>>>>
"Our common sense tells us that
the things of this earth barely exist,
that actual reality is only in our dreams."
Charles Baudelaire, Les Paradis Artificiels.