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Hermit
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A Challenge or two
« on: 2002-01-24 16:39:48 » |
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1) A relatively simple suggestion
I think that the ability to do a global search and replace to convert mail addresses in the archives to a BBS avatar, and so "link" old addresses. This would get rid of dead addresses (and limit access to amail addresses if desired) and allow the stats to operate across multiple addresses.
It might be implemented as a global search and replace run on request after the next back-up session. It would always require supervisor attention as it would need the supervisor to decide whether the request was valid (i.e valid identity and owner of the emails in question).
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two: Hermitish mail mark-up and citation
« Reply #1 on: 2002-01-25 07:29:45 » |
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Part II
I will forward the following to the Virus list. Is it possible to implement support for at least some of it at the BBS level? Does anyone else consider this a good idea?
Objective:
A simplified mail-markup system designed to allow those other than the authors to more easily follow discussions and to ensure the readability of messages by preventing the following kind of thing:
<example>
Source [RE: virus: machines, Joe Dees, Mon 1999-10-04 10:50]
> > > > > > > >I TOLD you that this mystical buddhist memebot would advance
> > > > > > > >from a denial of the self to a denial of the world!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please explain how that statement constitutes a denial
> > of the world.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Our "subjective" reality is never purely subjective, for it
> > > > contains (as
> > > > > > content) information, stimuli, information, perceptions,
> > etc. from the
> > > > > > surrounding world. To deny such lived experience its
> > reality is to
> > > > > > deny the reality of the environong world from which its
> > content flows.
</example>
Preferred Implementation:
Attribution:
Each paragraph is identified by the name of the speaker. e.g.:
<example>
[Hermit] Says something.
</example>
When a sequence of communications occur, this may be suffixed by a number. In order to denote who spoke first, the first entry of the first speaker is suffixed by an asterisk. e.g.:
<example>
[Hermit 0*] A implies B.
[Somebody 0] So is B True?
[Hermit 1] Only if A is True.
</example>
In order to refer to a particular statement a decimal may be suffixed to the number. e.g.:
<example>
Yada, Yada, Yada...
[Hermit 0.5] I refer to "some useful reference" which says X.
Yada, Yada, Yada...
[Somebody 0] I don't think that "some useful reference" is really useful.
[Hermit 1] But in [Hermit 0.5] I have already provided a reference you can check for yourself.
</example>
It is not necessary to number each paragraph, simply add reference numbers where needed. When reference numbers are added to a post, they should be done so in sequence. It is always possible to insert a new reference when required by adding another level of decimal. e.g.:
<example>
[Hermit 1.1] existing
[Hermit 1.15] <--- inserted
[Hermit 1.2] existing
</example>
When you need to quote from a previous letter, you may use negative numbers to indicate it precedes the current series.
<example>
[Hermit 0*] It is clear that...
[Somebody 0] I don't see that it is clear at all...
[Hermit 1] Well if we look at [some cross reference] you will see that you said:
[Somebody -1] From a previous post, possibly on a different thread: Yada, Yada, Yada...
[Hermit 1] From this is follows...
</example>
Citation:
To refer to a previous post, cite it as:
["Subject Line", Author, Sent Time]
If you have a web link to an archive, cite it as follows:
[http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::chZKR3t1-WX9t-PTwm-TFJ1-WwBiQStAPz5o, "virus: News Flash: Hermit Gets Earlobe Bitten Off by Tyson-like CoV Member", Hermit, 2002-01-23 13:00]
This allows the post to be found in a large number of ways and prevents the confusion of which post in a sequence sharing a subject line and with multiple participants is actually meant.
When you cite a web page, affix a date so that others may see when it was last accessed. e.g.:
[http://www.htmlclinic.com/metatags.php accessed 2002-01-25]
Dating:
I recommend the use of ISO dating which has the following format:
YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM[:SS] [TIMEZONE]. This automatically sorts things so dated in time sequence. Seconds and the time zone may be omitted if unimportant. It is recommended that Universal (i.e. Zulu) time be used to avoid confusion.
Elision:
When material is omitted from a follow-up post, the omitted material should be denoted by:
<example>
<snip>
</example>
Other Mark-up:
It is recommended that XML/HTML style bracketing be used, allowing clarity of what is so denoted. An example
<example>
I would like the next word <em>emphasized</em> but the rest of the sentence is not. I am <i>italicizing</i> this word. This is a <quote>quotation</quote>.
The use of CAPITALS to demote emphasis is often perceived as being equivalent to <i>shouting</i> and is depreciated.
</example>
Responsibilities:
An initial post in a sequence need not be so marked up, as it may garner no replies. The respondent to a post then has the responsibility of marking up the original message.
Subsequent replies and comments on a message already so marked up, have the responsibility of marking up their reply appropriately.
Each person sending a message has the responsibility of removing superfluous line breaks caused by wrapping in lame mail clients from their messages.
Status:
The use of this system is recommended but not mandated. Using it will make it more likely that your submissions will be read by others and prevent this from becoming a "write only zone."
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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David Lucifer
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #2 on: 2002-01-25 11:49:43 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-24 16:39:48
1) A relatively simple suggestion
I think that the ability to do a global search and replace to convert mail addresses in the archives to a BBS avatar, and so "link" old addresses. This would get rid of dead addresses (and limit access to amail addresses if desired) and allow the stats to operate across multiple addresses.
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Yes, this is in fact what I am working on now. (Now that I have the automatic import working so that messages posted to the list are immediately imported into the BBS.)
If all goes well I should have something working today. I will start with l'Hermit because I'm curious to see who is the top poster in the last 2 years. 
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David Lucifer
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Re:A Challenge or two: Hermitish mail mark-up and citation
« Reply #3 on: 2002-01-25 12:10:08 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-25 07:29:45
Other Mark-up:
It is recommended that XML/HTML style bracketing be used, allowing clarity of what is so denoted. An example
<example>
I would like the next word <em>emphasized</em> but the rest of the sentence is not. I am <i>italicizing</i> this word. This is a <quote>quotation</quote>.
The use of CAPITALS to demote emphasis is often perceived as being equivalent to <i>shouting</i> and is depreciated.
</example>
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The BBS doesn't allow HTML in messages (or rather, it displays it literally as seen above). But it does support its own limited (safe) markup language as described in the
YaBB markup guide. I suggest we adopt that as a standard.
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David Lucifer
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Re:A Challenge or two: Hermitish mail mark-up and citation
« Reply #4 on: 2002-01-25 12:15:38 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-25 07:29:45
A simplified mail-markup system designed to allow those other than the authors to more easily follow discussions and to ensure the readability of messages by preventing the following kind of thing:
<snip>
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Though I agree with the intent, I miss the visual cues provided by the indentation.
Others have thought about this problem, see Ka-Ping Yee's criticons example for another suggested solution.
I think this issue warrants more discussion before we include it in the "official" formatting guidelines.
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two: Hermitish mail mark-up and citation
« Reply #5 on: 2002-01-25 13:41:05 » |
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2002-01-25 12:10:08
Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-25 07:29:45
Other Mark-up:
It is recommended that XML/HTML style bracketing be used, allowing clarity of what is so denoted. An example
<example>
I would like the next word <em>emphasized</em> but the rest of the sentence is not. I am <i>italicizing</i> this word. This is a <quote>quotation</quote>.
The use of CAPITALS to demote emphasis is often perceived as being equivalent to <i>shouting</i> and is depreciated.
</example>
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The BBS doesn't allow HTML in messages (or rather, it displays it literally as seen above). But it does support its own limited (safe) markup language as described in the
YaBB markup guide. I suggest we adopt that as a standard.
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I like and approve this. For my own previous posts I think I have used <italic>, <bold>, <i>, <em> along with <sub> and <sup> and a global replace on them to this style would probably work - As a more general solution and one that might make more sense, something that could possibly be done without losing the "permanent archive", would be to allow posters to edit their own messages, leaving previous versions available "behind them". That way, if one were interested, corrections could be applied or contents updated, while preventing the loss of history or breaking of links inevitable when such a facility is used too generally.
In any case, I will adopt the YABB style in future posts as it makes total sense where messages are posted here. I also like the quoting capability, although would like the ability to reply to a post rather than a thread, particularly as it seems the threads could become long.
I will alter and resend the "Hermitish mail mark-up" post to include these suggested markups once the BBS is announced (it wouldn't really make sense otherwise) as this will only really be visible here.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two: Hermitish mail mark-up and citation
« Reply #6 on: 2002-01-25 13:57:57 » |
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Quote from: David Lucifer on 2002-01-25 12:15:38
Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-25 07:29:45
A simplified mail-markup system designed to allow those other than the authors to more easily follow discussions and to ensure the readability of messages by preventing the following kind of thing:
<snip>
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Though I agree with the intent, I miss the visual cues provided by the indentation.
Others have thought about this problem, see Ka-Ping Yee's criticons example for another suggested solution.
I think this issue warrants more discussion before we include it in the "official" formatting guidelines.
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I've looked at it, and given the restriction to being "useable" in ASCII email - which is still all that I consider safe, I think my style is preferable - particularly when it comes to cross references which are easy to insert and track manually - even across multiple iterations and forked threads.
Indentation might be nice if it were true outline indentation (i.e. wrapping did not return to the margin), and if email widths were not as restricted as they are. While I run my primary systems at 2000x1600 and am able to read even my monster posts on not more than a page or two, when travelling I sometimes work on a Palm computer - which means that I am very senstive to the limits of WAP - and indentation does truly horrible things to useability under those circumstances.
The think I really would like would be a whiteboard or possibly some kind of an equation editor (though that is very inefficient. When I tried to use Mathematica notation on the list, I got back a slew of complaints, but despite this, if it were possible to provide an APL font here, I'd try to teach those interested to use APL to communicate mathematical constants and simplify life a lot.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #7 on: 2002-01-25 16:47:38 » |
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Search Engine troubles?
I know that Hypatia (and some other things I have looked for must be in the archives somewhere... but the engine comes up with a blank...
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Hermitish mark-up, wannabe FAQ v II
« Reply #8 on: 2002-01-25 18:00:38 » |
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Content:
This FAQ addresses the issues of mail-markup (formatting) and snipping. This version of the FAQ is intended for use only in ASCII email (i.e. not for use in a markup aware display environment.
Comment:
It has come to my attention that I gave some bad advice in the first edition of this FAQ in the making. The formatting I suggested, conflicts with the embedding of virus messages in some web mail systems. So without further ado, here is revision II of the FAQ in the making, which also extends and enhances the format based on the suggestions and contributions of others, allows the material to be posted directly and safely to embedded pages, and permits the easy translation to HTML in environments which support this.
In case any-one wondered, comments, criticisms and suggestions are welcome.
Hermit
Objective:
A simplified mail-markup system designed to allow those other than the authors to more easily follow discussions and to ensure the readability of messages by preventing the following kind of thing:
[example]
Source [RE: virus: machines, Joe Dees, Mon 1999-10-04 10:50]
> > > > > > > >I TOLD you that this mystical buddhist memebot would advance
> > > > > > > >from a denial of the self to a denial of the world!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please explain how that statement constitutes a denial
> > of the world.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Our "subjective" reality is never purely subjective, for it
> > > > contains (as
> > > > > > content) information, stimuli, information, perceptions,
> > etc. from the
> > > > > > surrounding world. To deny such lived experience its
> > reality is to
> > > > > > deny the reality of the environong world from which its
> > content flows.
[/example]
Preferred Implementation:
Attribution:
Each paragraph is identified by the name of the speaker. e.g.:
[example]
[Hermit] Says something.
[/example]
Sequence:
When a sequence of communications occur, this may be suffixed by a number. In order to denote who spoke first, the first entry of the first speaker is suffixed by an asterisk. e.g.:
[example]
[Hermit 0*] A implies B.
[Somebody 0] So is B True?
[Hermit 1] Only if A is True.
[/example]
Reference:
In order to refer to a particular statement a decimal may be suffixed to the number. e.g.:
[example]
Yada, Yada, Yada...
[Hermit 0.5] I refer to "some useful reference" which says X.
Yada, Yada, Yada...
[Somebody 0] I don't think that "some useful reference" is really useful.
[Hermit 1] But in [Hermit 0.5] I have already provided a reference you can check for yourself.
[/example]
It is not necessary to number each paragraph, simply add reference numbers when and where needed. When reference numbers are added to a post, they should be done so in sequence. It is always possible to insert a new reference when required by adding another level of decimal. e.g.:
[example]
[Hermit 1.1] existing
[Hermit 1.15] <--- inserted
[Hermit 1.2] existing
[/example]
Later "back quoting":
When you need to quote from a previous letter, you may use negative numbers to indicate it precedes the current series.
[example]
[Hermit 0*] It is clear that...
[Somebody 0] I don't see that it is clear at all...
[Hermit 1] Well if we look at [some cross reference] you will see that you said:
[Somebody -1] From a previous post, possibly on a different thread: Yada, Yada, Yada...
[Hermit 1] From this is follows...
[/example]
Citation:
To refer to a previous post, cite it as:
["Subject Line", Author, Sent Time]
If you have a web link to an archive, cite it as follows:
Cite a URL: "Subject Line", Author, Sent Time
or just http://site.com/pointer to archive item if the post is identified elsewhere.
This allows the post to be found in a large number of ways and prevents the confusion of which post in a sequence sharing a subject line and with multiple participants is actually meant.
When you cite a web page, affix a date so that others may see when it was last accessed. e.g.:
Cite a URL with a text description: some hyperlinked text accessed 2002-01-25
Cite a URL without a text description: http://site.com
To include a pointer to an image:  or
To include a pointer to a flash movie: [flash]http:/site.com/flash.swf[/flash]
Dating:
I recommend the use of ISO dating which has the following format: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM[:SS] [TIMEZONE]. This automatically sorts things so dated in time sequence. Seconds and the time zone may be omitted if unimportant. It is recommended that Universal (i.e. Zulu) time be used to avoid confusion.
Elision (or "snipping"):
When material is omitted from a follow-up post, the omitted material should be denoted by:
[example]
<snip>
[/example]
This is important for everyone to remember... the snipping issue is at least as important as list content... because lots of people equate tenacious truncation with netiquette, and they simply won't read posts on a list that is uniformly rude.
<snipping> is appropriate when you do not disagree on a point, or where you state that it is not worth arguing. It is also worthwhile when replying with a short (or even a long) comment to the gist of a previous post, but where you are discussing the totality not the independent points of the post. It is worth remembering that not everyone has a fast connection, most people have insufficient reading speed, and few want to read a long post for the second time to see where the replies are located.
So use your judgment to keep the volume tolerable. Just don't <snip> something that you take issue with or some lamer will attack you for removing their arguments and assert that you did this invalidly because you couldn't argue your case effectively rather than just putting back the excised material. And this is a strong hint to avoid being seen as a lamer. If somebody snips something of yours and you choose to reply, simply put it back in place, and observe on why you think your text should not have been <snipped>.
Other Mark-up:
It is recommended that XML/HTML style bracketing not be used, to avoid confusing existing embedding of messages from the CoV, but that square brackets, i.e. "[" and "]" be used instead.
The following are appropriate:
Draw a horizontal line:
Bold Text: Bold
Italicize Text: Italic
Underline Text:Underlined
Strikethrough: strikethrough
Color text (e.g. Red): Red text
Quote text:
Quote:
It is not appropriate to use this markup style in other ways, or to add additional tags to it, without first discussing it, as this may confuse implementations of programs designed to convert Hermitish mark-up to HTML.
Hints:
The use of CAPITALS to demote emphasis is often perceived as being equivalent to shouting and is depreciated.
Responsibilities:
An initial post in a sequence need not be so marked up, as it may garner no replies. The respondent to a post then has the responsibility of marking up the original message.
Subsequent replies and comments on a message already so marked up, have the responsibility of marking up their reply appropriately.
Each person sending a message has the responsibility of removing superfluous line breaks caused by wrapping in lame mail clients from their messages.
Subject Lines:
It is important that you reply on subject. If you change the subject in a post, denote this by changing the subject line to something more appropriate.
When posting a reply to a specific person, it is suggested that you append "Ping name" at the end of the subject line. When replying to such a message you should remove the "Ping name" or alter the name appropriately.
Status:
The use of this system is recommended but not mandated. Using it will make it more likely that your submissions will be read by others and prevent this from becoming a "write only zone."
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #9 on: 2002-01-25 21:40:30 » |
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There seems to be a problem with incoming HTML quoted posts. Hope that is enought o track it down. A real mess.
See e.g.
Quote from: Bill Roh on 2002-01-25 19:25:14
--------------F306B646BF50FD35BBB01F73
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit |
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two Ping David
« Reply #10 on: 2002-01-28 02:56:23 » |
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Damn, I've spotted some "formatting errors" in my recent posts that I'd love to repair. What is the likelihood of getting "editing priviledges"?
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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David Lucifer
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Re:A Challenge or two Ping David
« Reply #11 on: 2002-01-28 13:44:12 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-28 02:56:23
Damn, I've spotted some "formatting errors" in my recent posts that I'd love to repair. What is the likelihood of getting "editing priviledges"?
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You should already have the ability to edit your own messages. If you don't see a "modify" button in the top right corner of your message, let me know and I will look into it.
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Hermit
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #12 on: 2002-01-28 17:10:02 » |
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You darling!
I love it.
Thanks
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Reputation: 8.81
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #13 on: 2002-01-28 18:13:16 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2002-01-24 16:39:48
1) A relatively simple suggestion
I think that the ability to do a global search and replace to convert mail addresses in the archives to a BBS avatar, and so "link" old addresses. This would get rid of dead addresses (and limit access to amail addresses if desired) and allow the stats to operate across multiple addresses.
It might be implemented as a global search and replace run on request after the next back-up session. It would always require supervisor attention as it would need the supervisor to decide whether the request was valid (i.e valid identity and owner of the emails in question).
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Congratulations on the name replace. It looks good. Just double check for "Jake" who, if memory serves is also our "Viral Prophet" and that will push his posts up too.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Reputation: 8.81
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Re:A Challenge or two
« Reply #14 on: 2002-01-28 18:39:29 » |
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Perhaps the addition of a few "macro-buttons" on the tag bar would make sense.
1) Fix Mail: To remove ">" at the start of lines, and remove spurious line feeds added by lame clients and mail wrapping when text is pasted into the window. Ideally, this would prefix all the paragraphs of a post not already so prefixed with the [Sender ID + n]. This would not be difficult, as the sender mail address could be used to fetch the sender name, and if the sender name is already present in a [Sender ID] block at the start of a line, one would simply find the greatest number, add one to it and use that.
2) URL Lookup: A way to open a browser, point to a URL/Picture/FTP site and return with the correctly formatted hyperlink for insertion into a new post.
3) Member Lookup: A way to open the member-list in a second window and insert a properly marked-up member name into a new post.
4) Post Lookup: A way to open a search box (which must search at least for all the text, all on a subject, all by a member and all by a date) and return a properly marked up message cross-reference.
5) My Name: Inserts [Editor Id + n] at the start of the current paragraph. Perhaps this should combine the Editor Id (known) with a text box which defaults to the highest n already used in the message, but allows it to be overridden.
These all produce simple text insertions which may be edited.
Another really useful facility would be the ability to establish a floating toolbar on the left (which remains fixed in the view port as the screen is moved up and down) which would allow the user to drag any item reference onto it, so creating a customized short cut menu for navigation. The contents would be established as a simple array, stored and fetched with the user profile. The menu itself would be a simple Java menu.
As a final item, adding a "birthday" block which notifies people visiting the site of member birthdays would add a stickiness factor.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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