logo Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
2024-11-24 16:22:59 CoV Wiki
Learn more about the Church of Virus
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Donations now taken through PayPal

  Church of Virus BBS
  General
  Serious Business

  Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Reply Notify of replies Send the topic Print 
   Author  Topic: Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!  (Read 4082 times)
Hermit
Archon
*****

Posts: 4289
Reputation: 8.79
Rate Hermit



Prime example of a practically perfect person

View Profile WWW
Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« on: 2007-09-19 02:43:45 »
Reply with quote

More than 1,000,000 Iraqis murdered

[ Hermit: Please note, this relates only to those directly murdered in the aftermath of the US' criminal invasion of Iraq. It does not relate to the huge surplus in deaths caused by ongoing dereliction of infrastructure and aid, now made impossible by the deliberate destruction of the Iraq as a viable State. I would estimate the total surplus deaths to be approaching the 4.5 to 5 million mark subsequent to the ending of the first US-Iraq war, and 2 to 3 million for the duration of the post invasion era. Given that our destruction in Iraq has now dragged on for longer than America's involvement in WW II, so the total numbers don't appear as impressive as those generated by Nazi Germany, it should be born in mind that the population base we have involved in our war of aggression is smaller too.

Before anyone takes issue with these numbers, they are in line with the findings of the Lancet Study, and like that study, the open methodology, sample size and statistical approach taken here is unexceptional. The raw data is available (see links at the end of the page) and the methodology is the same as that used to establish death levels in Rwanda, making the conclusions directly comparable.]


Source: Press Release Opinion Research Business (ORB)
Dated: 2007-09

In the week in which General Patraeus reports back to US Congress on the impact the recent ‘surge’ is having in Iraq, a new poll reveals that more than 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have been murdered since the invasion took place in 2003.

Previous estimates, most noticeably the one published in the Lancet in October 2006, suggested almost half this number (654,965 deaths).

These findings come from a poll released today by ORB, the British polling agency that has been tracking public opinion in Iraq since 2005. In conjunction with their Iraqi fieldwork agency a representative sample of 1,499 adults aged 18+ answered the following question:-

Q How many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (ie as a result of violence rather than a natural death such as old age)? Please note that I mean those who were actually living under your roof.

None 78%
One 16%
Two 5%
Three 1%
Four or more 0.002%

Given that from the 2005 census there are a total of 4,050,597 households this data suggests a total of 1,220,580 deaths since the invasion in 2003.

Detailed analysis (which is available on our website) indicates that almost one in two households in Baghdad have lost a family member, significantly higher than in any other area of the country. The governorates of Diyala (42%) and Ninewa (35%) were next.

The poll also questioned the surviving relatives on the method in which their loved ones were killed. It reveals that 48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from the impact of a car bomb, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance. This is significant because more often that not it is car bombs and aerial bombardments that make the news – with gunshots rarely in the headlines.

As well as a murder rate that now exceeds the Rwanda genocide from 1994 (800,000 murdered), not only have more than one million been injured but our poll calculates that of the millions of Iraqis that have fled their neighbourhoods, 52% have moved within Iraq but 48% have crossed its borders, with Syria taking the bulk of refugees.


And for those left in Iraq, although 81% may describe the availability of basic groceries such as bread and fresh vegetables as “very/fairly good”, more than one in two (54%) consider them to be “expensive”.

Note:

The opinion poll was conducted by ORB and the survey details are as follows:

•Results are based on face-to-face interviews amongst a nationally representative sample of 1,720 adults aged 18+ throughout Iraq (1,499 agreed to answer the question on household deaths)
•The standard margin of error on the sample who answered (1,499) is +2.5%
•The methodology uses multi-stage random probability sampling and covers fifteen of the eighteen governorates within Iraq. For security reasons Karbala and Al Anbar were not included. Irbil was excluded as the authorities refused our field team a permit.
•Interviews conducted August 12th – 19th 2007.
•Full results and data tabulations are available at http://www.opinion.co.uk/newsroom.aspx
•ORB is a full member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules

TABLES.pdf
FinalDeadNumbersWEIGHTED.xls
Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Blunderov
Archon
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 3160
Reputation: 8.66
Rate Blunderov



"We think in generalities, we live in details"

View Profile WWW E-Mail
Re:Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« Reply #1 on: 2008-01-11 02:02:48 »
Reply with quote

[Blunderov] The MSM sucks it again. As usual.



Lenin's Tomb

Thursday, January 10, 2008

Iraq mortality studies posted by lenin

The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) has published an article and study pdf indicating that, as of June 2006, 151,000 Iraqis had suffered violent deaths since March 2003. The figures come from the Iraq Family Health Survey (IFHS), a body composed by employees of the Iraqi health ministry. It is the same team that carried out the UNDP's 2004 Iraq Living Conditions Survey. No one can fail to miss the way in which the response to this survey differs from that to the Lancet study. In the latter case, universal scorn from the British and American political classes, despite the MoD's top scientist endorsing its scientific rigour. In this case, the hallelujahs could not be louder, not because the media actually give a fuck whether it is true or not, but because they can - well, they can defend the murder of 151,000 people more easily than they can defend the murder of 600,000 or 1.2 million.

Les Roberts, a co-author of the two Lancet surveys, has offered his response here. Aside from pointing out where the surveys converge or at least bear similarities, Roberts suggests that the same body has previously drastically underestimated deaths with the result that on interviewing the same batch of households for the second time, the total child mortality rate was double their reported deaths in the previous visit. Their reported death rate for immediately before and after the invasion is much lower than that for 2002 (this is not a survey of excess deaths, so the implication is that underreporting in 2003 would lead one to expect further underreporting in 2004, 2005 and 2006). So, "the past record suggests people do not want to report deaths to these government employees."

One point of serious divergence with the 2006 Lancet survey is that this study attributes over 50% of the deaths to Baghdad and only around 30% to "High-Mortality Provinces". The Lancet survey attributed about 20% of the violent deaths to Baghdad and over 60% to those "High-Mortality Provinces". One reason for this appears to be that of the clusters they could not visit due to "security" problems (bombing and shit), 61.7% were in Anbar. Thus, to make up for it, they calibrated the figures according to the Iraq Body Count database - the database that, as we all know, is compiled from media reports, which of course are themselves blind to huge parts of the country due in part to "security" risks. Further, it is not even based on all media reports of deaths: about one in four stories in the major US press alone have been missed by the IBC's survey according to one review(cited by Roberts and Burnham). Thus, their distribution of 'reported' deaths is very much like IBC's. This distribution is counterintuitive since the largest US military operations have been conducted in towns and cities in the 'Sunni Triangle' such as Fallujah, Ramadi, Haditha and al-Qaim - all in the Anbar province. The biggest operations, such as Operation Phantom Fury, were focused in Anbar. The fiercest resistnace to the US has been based in Anbar, with the province accounting for the largest portion of attacks of all kinds in each of the three years covered.

Still, those are issues that would theoretically be resolved through debate and the input of others in the know. That isn't going to happen. Whatever the intentions of the ministry of health workers who carried out this study, its findings are now out of their hands. It is now a weapon for neutralising the findings of the Lancet survey, as per this. After all, even the real terms of the survey itself hardly matter. As Eli points out, the total mortality noted by this survey, whatever its flaws, would actually mean there were about four times as many deaths as are now being to be reported, because of the emphasis on strictly violent deaths. Back in the day, they didn't do body counts. Now, they do it perforce by way of exonerating themselves.
Labels: iraq, lancet study, stop the war


6:42:00 PM | Permalink | 5 new comments | Trackback (0) | Print
Report to moderator   Logged
Hermit
Archon
*****

Posts: 4289
Reputation: 8.79
Rate Hermit



Prime example of a practically perfect person

View Profile WWW
Re:Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« Reply #2 on: 2008-01-11 06:33:23 »
Reply with quote

It should be noted that the Lancet study, and the  ORB Study (supra) track extremely well, and in a well written article are shown to have very thorough support from the scientific and statistical communities - including government staff. A list of in-field experts supporting these conclusions was published by The Age.

Given that every estimation methodology I have seen used to date tends to undercount deaths (including the Lancet and OBC methodologies), the lower morbidity reflected in the NH Journal  appears spurious - until you realize that it suffered not only the enumerated faults, but was filtered for what the US puppet government in  Iraq is pleased to call "violent deaths", not surplus deaths. When infant deaths in Iraq have gone from better than in the US under Saddam Hussein during the American inspired genocidal sanctions on Iraq, to desperate; such that infant morbidity and and adult male lifespans in America's Iraq look like those of the other "quiet genocide" occurring in the world today, that of the Sioux Indians, it is quite apparent that the illegal intervention in Iraq has caused death on a genocidal scale.

Whether the numbers here are high, low, or accurate, the massively unbalanced treatment by the media of the conclusions presented is nothing short of disgraceful. Indeed, the only thing more disgraceful is the initial war of aggression and ongoing complicity in genocide. Perhaps if we take this "lower number" that people seem comfortable with, and reevaluate it in terms of 151,000 from a population of some 27 million, and suggest that under Lex Talionis (the US having striven, at least partly successfully, against any other form of International law, to the great detriment of the world (and of the US Constitution)), this justifies the Iraqis engaging in equity in counteraction against the USA, which on an actuarial basis would result in deaths of over 1.5 million Americans. How would people arguing that this death toll is acceptable when it is happening in Iraq attempt to argue that such retribution against the USA would be unjustified without being embarrassed by their own hypocrisy? Or are they saying that the population of Iraq would be justified in "trimming" the US population? In which case, would they please volunteer themselves for the purpose.

Kind Regards

Hermit
« Last Edit: 2008-01-14 19:05:05 by Hermit » Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Salamantis
Neophyte
*****

Posts: 2845
Reputation: 0.00



I'm a llama!

View Profile E-Mail
Re:Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« Reply #3 on: 2008-01-14 06:01:06 »
Reply with quote

[[ author reputation (0.00) beneath threshold (3)... display message ]]

Report to moderator   Logged
MoEnzyme
Anarch
*****

Gender: Male
Posts: 2256
Reputation: 3.91
Rate MoEnzyme



infidel lab animal

View Profile WWW
Right-Wingers Can't Cover Up Iraq's Death Toll Catastrophe
« Reply #4 on: 2008-01-21 14:02:29 »
Reply with quote

[Mo: Responding to the neo-con troll's memetic spewage (my comments in red - my emphasis in yellow)]

Right-Wingers Can't Cover Up Iraq's Death Toll Catastrophe
http://www.alternet.org/story/74263/
By John Tirman, AlterNet. Posted January 21, 2008.

Now I know what Hillary Clinton meant, first hand, by that "vast right-wing conspiracy." When the Wall Street Journal editorial page and the Sunday Times in London are going after you -- along with about 100 right-wing bloggers -- rest assured you've hit a nerve.

Or is it just Soros Derangement Syndrome at work?

More than two years ago, I commissioned a household survey of Iraq to learn how many people had died in the war. This topic had been virtually ignored by the news media and the U.S. government. It was important to know for at least three reasons. The first was to try to understand the nature of the violence there, which was steadily growing and creating a humanitarian crisis, possibly a regional conflagration. Second, it might tell us something about how and when to exit. Third, we needed to know for the sake of our national soul. What had we wrought?

So I contacted the people who had done a previous, largely ignored survey-top public health professionals at Johns Hopkins University. They had published a survey in October 2004 that showed 98,000 had died in the first 18 months of the war, which was greeted with disbelief and charges of politicizing science, and quickly dismissed.

I said: 'do a bigger survey to improve the accuracy, and I will make sure it gets the proper attention in the news media.' They did do a bigger survey, and I managed a public education campaign that permitted the results to be considered more broadly, results that estimated total deaths at 600,000 by violence after 40 months of war. The survey was published in The Lancet, the British medical journal. And get attention it did, roundly disbelieved and scorned by war supporters, but spurring a brief but intense debate about the human cost of the war.

Dozens of statisticians and other professionals scoured the study and its data to see if the methods and implementation were proper; a special committee at the World Health Organization was convened to review it, and the Lancet had also subjected it to rigorous peer review. The survey held up to this scrutiny, with quibbles and some lingering "should have done this" and "might have done that." But virtually every competent person agreed that the study provided the best estimate we have.

Then, earlier this month, the National Journal, a Capitol Hill "insider" weekly, ran a cover story titled "Data Bomb" by Neil Munro and Carl Cannon. In a note by Munro published by the National Review blog, he asserts:

Quote:
George Soros funded the survey. The U.S. authors played no role in data-collection, and did not apply standard anti-fraud measures. The chief Iraqi data-collector had earlier produced medical articles to help Saddam's anti-sanctions campaign in the 1990s, and said Allah guided the prior 2004 Lancet/Johns Hopkins death-survey. Some of the field surveyors were employed by Moqtada Sadr's Ministry of Health. The Iraqis' numbers contain evidence of fakery, and the Lancet did not check for fakery.


It's a neat summary of their allegations, which include dozens of unfounded charges, promiscuous innuendo, misquoting of the principals, and misunderstanding statistics, and relies on two disgruntled critics. It was a hatchet job, pure and simple. Not a sentence of Munro's summary is truthful, and that goes for much of the NJ article, too, which I have demolished elsewhere (http://www.johntirman.com/Bombs%20Away%20-%20a%20dull%20hatchet%20job.pdf). The principal author, Gilbert Burnham, M.D., Ph.D., and his colleagues have taken time from their clinics in Afghanistan and Jordan and Africa to answer the charges on the John Hopkins website, too ( with a letter here http://www.jhsph.edu/refugee/research/iraq/national_journal.html, and a FAQ here http://www.jhsph.edu/refugee/research/iraq/lancet_mortality_response.html).

But lies have a way of proliferating on the Internet [Mo: here via trolling memebot "Salamantis"], and so it was with this set of schoolyard bully brickbats. What seemed most to get under the skin of the right-wing media was a small grant for public education funded by the Open Society Institute, a foundation created by George Soros.

The charges of fraud that NJ clumsily made but never came close to proving were of course a tonic to the war supporters who were shamed by the estimate of 600,000 fatalities. There is nothing as devastating to the increasingly discredited case for war as the specter of the U.S. invasion having caused, directly and indirectly, more deaths than were attributed to the bloody reign of Saddam Hussein.

But it was news that "Soros" was a donor, and the wingnuts went berserk. The line that Munro and Cannon took was that "Soros" was somehow behind the survey from the start, which was timed to affect the 2006 elections. It was not only fraud, they contend, but the perversion of science for political ends backed by the disgruntled, Bush-hating billionaire.

It's classic right-wing defamation, and of course none of it is true. Munro and Cannon were painstakingly walked through the chronology and donors, but deliberately ignored it to fashion their paranoid fairy tale, and the Wall Street Journal et al lapped it up.

We commissioned the survey on October 25, 2005, hoping to get it done as quickly as it could be done professionally, and perhaps have the results out in the spring. Why wait? But Iraq quickly became too violent to permit teams of questioners go out to 1,000 randomly chosen households. So it was not until late spring that they did begin the door-to-door work-still very perilous-and completed the survey in early July. It took another two months to enter the data, have biostatisticians at Johns Hopkins analyze it, and write up the article. The Lancet then took weeks to peer review. It was released when ready. There was no political agenda; there didn't need to be. The results spoke for themselves.

The Open Society Institute came late to the process, announcing to me that a grant had been made for public education on May 4, 2006. That is six and a half months after the survey process began. We had already paid for the survey out of internal funds. Less than half of the cash needs of the survey, the analysis, and the public education effort was paid for by OSI. (If the real cost of the effort were totaled-to include salaries of Burnham, myself, and many others who were not compensated directly-then the OSI contribution would have offset about 10 percent of the cost.) I doubt very much whether George Soros himself was ever aware of the grant. OSI is a very large, humanitarian foundation, and their $46,000 grant to MIT is small by their standards.

And, needless to say, OSI and "Soros" had no influence over the initiation, conduct, or findings of the survey. Neither Burnham and his colleagues nor the Lancet editors knew OSI was one of the donors. The contract was with MIT.

I carefully told this to Munro on the telephone, and Burnham's colleague Les Roberts emailed the same information to Cannon last autumn. Munro had asked, among other hostile questions, whether any Muslims or Arabs were supporting the survey, a racism reflected in his remark about Allah above and a charge in the NJ piece that the survey teams lacked American oversight and were thereby suspect. But he was emotionally fixated on Soros, and asked about his role repeatedly. When I tried to offer corroborating evidence for the survey, he screamed at me that none of that mattered. I could see where this was going.

Of course, Munro himself has been a rabid supporter of the war from the start. In the tradition of former NJ editor Michael Kelly, who called opponents of the war traitors, Munro agitated for the "destruction of Iraq" as early as November 2001 http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-munro110601.shtml. He had elsewhere insisted that the peace in Northern Ireland was the result of the British Army's iron fist. His sentiments were on display through the hatchet job on us, not least in alleging that The Lancet article was a spur to jihadists.

So the headlines-"Soros Underwrites Osama's Talking Points," and "$oros Iraq Death Claim was a Sham" are typical. The Soros Derangement Syndrome derives, I suspect, from his special status as a traitor to his class, as the right used to refer to FDR. Someone so intelligent, articulate, actively compassionate, and rich cannot be tolerated.

In an odd twist, a new mortality survey-approvingly mentioned by the NJ piece-appeared earlier this month in the New England Journal of Medicine http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMsa0707782. Conducted by the Iraqi Ministry of Health, it found 151,000 deaths by violence as of June 2006, about the same period as the Lancet article. Newspaper coverage duly noted that their estimate was only one-quarter that of the Lancet. But a little digging would have revealed much more: the total deaths attributable to the war, non-violent as well as violent, was about 400,000 for that period, now 19 months ago. If the same trends continued, that total today would be more than 600,000.

The deaths-by-violence in that latter survey remained the same from year-to-year, however, which is not plausible-all observers agree that violent deaths were rising sharply in 2005 and 2006. The discrepancy is found in how the survey was conducted: interviewers identified themselves as employees of the Ministry of Health, then under the control of Shiite cleric Moktada al Sadr. Those interviewed, therefore, would be wary of saying a brother or son or husband had been killed by violence, fearing retribution. And, indeed, there are non-violent categories in the survey that suggest just such equivocation: "Unintentional injuries" would equal about 40 percent of the death-by-violence toll, for example. Road accidents were ten times their pre-war totals-if someone is run off a highway by a U.S. convoy, is that a "non-violent" death?

The researchers, to their credit, acknowledge that their estimate is likely too low due to several factors. They did not go into dangerous neighborhoods, which made up 11 percent of the sample, and could not accurately estimate the death toll in those, which would of course have been high. Still, the survey is revealing on the non-violent mortality, too: deaths by kidney failure, cancer, diabetes, and others rose by several times, signaling the near-collapse of the health care system.

The MoH survey is the fifth trying to measure mortality during the war, and there is significant congruence among all. (The Lancet estimate is not actually the highest; that belongs to the private British polling firm, Opinion Research Business, which found that as of August 2007, 1.2 million Iraqis were dead due to the war.) But all the surveys point to one thing: a colossal amount of killing and dying has been going on, far more than numbers used in most discussions of the issue in the fleeting instances when concern for Iraqis appears.

And that, of course, should be the real issue here, not whether George Soros is interested in the issue. The NJ calumny and the many gleeful references to it are a sign that the pro-war legions are really at wit's end. The catastrophe they created and supported must be blamed on others-the conveyors of bad news, the quisling liberals, and the Iraqis themselves.

But the dead in Iraq cannot be silenced as long as we have courageous researchers who will go into the warzone to gather data and tell us the truth. That's what five surveys-against perilous of odds-have done, and the findings should haunt us every day.

[Mo: So in effect the neo-cons are asking us to trust a study conducted under the intimidating, corrupt, and hardly-impartial minions of Moqtada Al Sadr - the Iraqi Ministry of Health (and no doubt closely monitored and/or overseen by US military), over one conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University. Quite a practice in delusional bullshit.]



« Last Edit: 2008-01-21 20:42:14 by Mo » Report to moderator   Logged

I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme


(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
Hermit
Archon
*****

Posts: 4289
Reputation: 8.79
Rate Hermit



Prime example of a practically perfect person

View Profile WWW
Re:Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« Reply #5 on: 2008-01-21 19:15:29 »
Reply with quote

Nice confirmatory research and conclusion.

Thanks Mo.
Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Hermit
Archon
*****

Posts: 4289
Reputation: 8.79
Rate Hermit



Prime example of a practically perfect person

View Profile WWW
Re:Rwanda Genocide Caused Far Fewer Deaths than Our "Success" in Iraq!
« Reply #6 on: 2008-01-31 12:20:02 »
Reply with quote

Iraq conflict has killed a million, says survey

[i] [ Hermit: It is important to note that this number is not the same as "surplus deaths" in other words, it is a much smaller number than the actual death toll reflected by the increase in deaths per thousand across all age groups since the US unconstitutionally and illegally invaded Iraq in a war of aggression, overthrew her legitimate government, established a puppet government by force majeure, illegally abducted and tortured civilians and perhaps most significantly, has failed to comply with her obligations to sustain and protect the civilian population or an occupied territory in terms of the Geneva Conventions. All of these are crimes for which the US has sentenced the political and military leadership of other countries to death. Our ongoing bombing campaigns are killing more civilians than even purported "terrorists" in aerial bombing of civilian areas is a national disgrace to which the US was once sensitive (Google for Guernica). No more. The fact that there is argument about these numbers which even at their lowest estimates are far worse than those for which Saddam Hussein was railroaded and executed, is far less significant than the fact that no Americans have yet been indicted for these many crimes. Which speaks volubly to our national collective complicity. And still some Americans have the hypocrisy to speak of rogue nations.]

Source: Reuters
Authors: Not Attributed
Dated: 2008-01-30
Dateline: London

More than one million Iraqis have died as a result of the conflict in their country since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, according to research conducted by one of Britain's leading polling groups.

The survey, conducted by Opinion Research Business (ORB) with 2,414 adults in face-to-face interviews, found that 20 percent of people had had at least one death in their household as a result of the conflict, rather than natural causes.

The last complete census in Iraq conducted in 1997 found 4.05 million households in the country, a figure ORB used to calculate that approximately 1.03 million people had died as a result of the war, the researchers found.

The margin of error in the survey, conducted in August and September 2007, was 1.7 percent, giving a range of deaths of 946,258 to 1.12 million.

ORB originally found that 1.2 million people had died, but decided to go back and conduct more research in rural areas to make the survey as comprehensive as possible and then came up with the revised figure.

The research covered 15 of Iraq's 18 provinces. Those that not covered included two of Iraq's more volatile regions -- Kerbala and Anbar -- and the northern province of Arbil, where local authorities refused them a permit to work.


Estimates of deaths in Iraq have been highly controversial in the past.

Medical journal The Lancet published a peer-reviewed report in 2004 stating that there had been 100,000 more deaths than would normally be expected since the March 2003 invasion, kicking off a storm of protest.

The widely watched Web site Iraq Body Count currently estimates that between 80,699 and 88,126 people have died in the conflict, although its methodology and figures have also been questioned by U.S. authorities and others.

ORB, a non-government-funded group founded in 1994, conducts research for the private, public and voluntary sectors.

The director of the group, Allan Hyde, said it had no objective other than to record as accurately as possible the number of deaths among the Iraqi population as a result of the invasion and ensuing conflict. (Reporting by Luke Baker; editing by Andrew Roche)
Report to moderator   Logged

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
Pages: [1] Reply Notify of replies Send the topic Print 
Jump to:


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Church of Virus BBS | Powered by YaBB SE
© 2001-2002, YaBB SE Dev Team. All Rights Reserved.

Please support the CoV.
Valid HTML 4.01! Valid CSS! RSS feed