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Topic: Exodus of the Rats (Read 1748 times) |
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Hermit
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Exodus of the Rats
« on: 2006-02-27 13:07:24 » |
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"One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. … Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven't proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols." -- William F. Buckley, Jr., neocon, warmonger.
"As we approach the third anniversary of the onset of the Iraq war, it seems very unlikely that history will judge either the intervention itself or the ideas animating it kindly. By invading Iraq, the Bush administration created a self-fulfilling prophecy: Iraq has now replaced Afghanistan as a magnet, a training ground and an operational base for jihadist terrorists, with plenty of American targets to shoot at. The United States still has a chance of creating a Shi'ite-dominated democratic Iraq, but the new government will be very weak for years to come; the resulting power vacuum will invite outside influence from all of Iraq's neighbors, including Iran. There are clear benefits to the Iraqi people from the removal of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and perhaps some positive spillover effects in Lebanon and Syria. But it is very hard to see how these developments in themselves justify the blood and treasure that the United States has spent on the project to this point." -- Francis Fukuyama, pseudohistorian, neocon, warmonger.
A pity that current International Law does not allow us to put the now rapidly retreating "intellectual" backers of these illegitimate attacks into the dock along with the political hacks and military executioners.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #1 on: 2006-02-28 04:09:04 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2006-02-27 13:07:24 A pity that current International Law does not allow us to put the now rapidly retreating "intellectual" backers of these illegitimate attacks into the dock along with the political hacks and military executioners.
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Now who would have thought we would see the Hermit calling for punishment for thought-crime?
If Iraq fails and that remains to be seen, it will be largely thanks to the unceasing efforts of people like you who were against the project for your own reasons.
The Iranians, Al Qaeda, The Anti-Bush brigade...all with ultimately competing interests but all hoping for failure in Iraq
You, Hermit, were dead wrong about Afghanistan when you predicted millions dead in the winter of 2002 and other calamities that never came to pass.
I think your gloating about Iraq is similarly premature.
I backed the invasion. I hope secular democracy is established in Iraq. I hope the whole of Iraq can have the sort of peace and prosperity of the Kurdish sector. We know it is possible, but is there the political will (undermined as it is by the efforts of the "intellectual backers" of the Islamist insurgency on the home front) and can reason triumph over ethnic and religious pseudo-divisions?
I believe so. We will see which of us is right this time too.
Kind regards,
JD
"Proudly exposing Hermit's innaccurate predictions since 2001"
PS. What is with the name calling "warmonger" and "pseudohistorian"? I though you were above all that.
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Mermaid
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #2 on: 2006-02-28 09:43:38 » |
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Quote from: Jonathan Davis on 2006-02-28 04:09:04
I backed the invasion. I hope secular democracy is established in Iraq. I hope the whole of Iraq can have the sort of peace and prosperity of the Kurdish sector. We know it is possible, but is there the political will (undermined as it is by the efforts of the "intellectual backers" of the Islamist insurgency on the home front) and can reason triumph over ethnic and religious pseudo-divisions?
[..]
PS. What is with the name calling "warmonger" and "pseudohistorian"? I though you were above all that.
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let me interrupt here with something totally unoriginal and blindingly obvious.
you "backed" the invasion? only arrogant twits can say that. but not you. altho'
you are not a vote casting american.
you are not afghan.
you are not iraqi.
you are not related to cheney or dubya.
what you are is one who(like most of the rest of us) can pass commentary from the sidelines. you have zero involvement with this invasion(thanks for using the correct term). you have zero gain. you have zero loss. you are a ..how you say...a cheerleader of war. aka warmonger. aka pseudohistorian.
those who speak against the "invasion" speak as part of humanity which expresses it's empathy as loud naysayers to loss of life, property and diginity. i dont know what you are. maybe you ARE an arrogant twit. you should know that i, unlike so many gentle readers here, have no qualms about not being above "all that".
honestly, you make me want to retch.
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Hermit
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #4 on: 2006-03-01 03:44:00 » |
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[Hermit 1] A pity that current International Law does not allow us to put the now rapidly retreating "intellectual" backers of these illegitimate attacks into the dock along with the political hacks and military executioners.
[Jonathan Davis 2] Now who would have thought we would see the Hermit calling for punishment for thought-crime?
[Hermit 3] Hmmm, in my mind this raises some serious questions regarding strawmen:- When was putting somebody in the dock, i.e charging them of have committed an offense the same as punishment?
- Who said anything about a "thought crime"?
[Hermit 3] I would argue that it is as valid to charge and possibly obtain a convictions against those who justified, supported and engineered the illegal invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as it was to prosecute some of the intellectual leaders of the National Socialists. For example, Albert Speer spent 20 years as "Prisoner No 5" in Spandau despite having successfully distanced himself from the implementation phase of his intellectual offspring. Hopefully the world will not engage in the same kind of witch hunt, and won't attempt to warp International Law like this, but at the very least the warmongers like these should not be allowed merely to walk away from the movements they helped to establish and popularize simply because they are sufficiently smart to recognise the scale of the disaster before the facade of success collapses in its entirety upon its slower advocates.
[Jonathan Davis 2] If Iraq fails and that remains to be seen, it will be largely thanks to the unceasing efforts of people like you who were against the project for your own reasons.
[Hermit 3] If this were true I would flagellate myself for not having more success at preventing it, rather than merely predicting it. But you flatter me and most of those like me far more than I credit the eminence grise of the neocons. My reasons for opposing all of these interventions were - and are legion. The most significant probably being that despite the fact that they would be expensive in innumerable ways, they had no hope of achieving any worthwhile objectives, would tend to increase suffering and misery, were blatantly hypocritical - as well as illegal - and as such would tend to destroy the (small) advances in International stability and law we have achieved in the last century. Unfortunately, my reason, my reasons, and even my (often interrupted rather than unceasing) efforts are not terribly significant on a global scale.
[Hermit 3] The real reason for the failure is that which I predicted before we started. The West, and especially the US, have spent far to much time creating enemies through ignoring issues of fairness and equality, all the while telling ourselves how wonderful we are to such an extent that far to many of "us" believe our own propaganda - or find it convenient to pretend to. Given the degree of hatred we have sewn with brutal policies, our engaging in action in hostile terrain with populations whose children we regarded as "worth killing" where any favorable outcome - or even stability - requires peoples who have pursued thousand year vendettas over insults - to forget - or even forgive our actions against them - was bound to fail. As you know, I have a lot of experience dealing with tribalism, asymmetric warfare and its effect on populations. My opinion was and is that if the US had such expertise after losing its shirt in SE Asia, or even through its activities in Afghanistan and Angola in the seventies and eighties, that that expertise had clearly retired before the current madness began. Events in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be proving me right.
[Hermit 3] Without the "justifications" to war spread by the grey cardinals, the church and the press would not have lined up behind the war machine and the public would likely have objected to being dragged into expensive, unproductive and uncertain foreign adventures with every likelihood of embarrassment. A likelihood now converted to a certainty by history.
[Jonathan Davis 2] The Iranians, Al Qaeda, The Anti-Bush brigade...all with ultimately competing interests but all hoping for failure in Iraq
[Hermit 3] Interesting simplification, conglomeration and attempted "guilt by imputed association". There is a lot of that going on around here. Which is why it is easily recognised. Which does not make it valid.
[Hermit 3] Speaking of pseudohistory, have you been reading it or had you just forgotten that the Iranians and al-Q'aida aren't even slightly on the same side. No matter how screwed up your information you should be able, if reminded, to remember that the US created the (Sunni) Pushtun-dominated Taliban (and their evil step-child al-Q'aida) to fight against the Iranian and Russian supported (Shia) Northern Alliance, composed of Dari (a Persian dialect)-speaking Tajiks, Afghan Communists and Shiite fellow travellers? Even if it didn't make Fox News, it is no secret in intelligence communities that the CIA (under Clinton and Bush) were, prior to 9/11 intending to use the Taliban and al-Q'aida as weapons against Iran (China's client) and China itself (where al-Quaida was involved in a Sunni insurgency in Sinkiang). Nevertheless, Iran aided the US invasion of Afghanistan and jailed scores of al-Qaida members, including one of bin Laden’s sons. Being an intelligent and sophisticated people, the Iranians probably enjoyed the irony far more than did the US who quite possibly were largely unaware of this history.
[Jonathan Davis 2] You, Hermit, were dead wrong about Afghanistan when you predicted millions dead in the winter of 2002 and other calamities that never came to pass.
[Hermit 3] It seems you didn't read or don't remember what I wrote at the time. The best estimates on deaths were made by people on the ground and by aid agencies. I passed them on, with as many ifs as seemed appropriate. Fortunately the winter that year was not as bad as it could have been, and thus not as many died as had been predicted as a likely outcome. That doesn't somehow make the concerns of the time less valid, or the barbarism and stupidity of those who didn't care less apparent. There is no possible exculpation for the fact that we didn't care how many had to suffer to achieve a the pyrrhic victory of handing power to the same people as we had fought against, at great expense to us, and greater expense for the Afghans, through the seventies and into the nineties, or that we completely unnecessarily killed a lot of people, and caused hardship and misery for millions more. Just because the government of Afghanistan, the Taliban, asked for evidence before extraditing somebody. Something most countries insist upon. Including France. And the US goes beyond that.
[Hermit 3] I'm not sure what "other calamities" I apparently "predicted" that "never came to pass". Please remind me (with references).
[Jonathan Davis 2] I think your gloating about Iraq is similarly premature.
[Hermit 3] Gloating? I merely quoted some neocon warmongers. And if you think I am "gloating" over being proved right on this then I think you are one sick puppy who does not know me very well at all. What has happened in Iraq is a travesty of justice and a lesson in futile callousness that will likely cause an escalating misery of retribution, counter retribution and preventive retribution - and we survive long enough. As we have eliminated most of the obvious targets, most of that will be executed by the poor and the weak - who not having other more effective weapons, tend to rely on "terrorism." I expect much of this misery to happen in the USA. And I, unlike you, live there. So no, I'm not gloating. As previously noted, I rather like people, and don't much look forward to watching the economic catastrophe that seems to be an inevitable legacy of pissing a couple of trillion dollars away on the sands of the Middle East - that don't care, and on the heads of people whose particular crime is to have dark skins, funny accents and oil - and who care far too much.
[Hermit 3] Premature is also, as I have noted before, not the case. Not only I (although I noted it before the current conflict began), but many others including the neoconartists I quoted have noted that we have lost any hope of achieving anything positive in Iraq. By any definition. Though not nearly as badly as the Iraqi have. As the head of Shin Bet recently noted, Saddam Hussein was clearly preferable to what we seem to have achieved.
[Jonathan Davis 2] I backed the invasion. I hope secular democracy is established in Iraq. I hope the whole of Iraq can have the sort of peace and prosperity of the Kurdish sector. We know it is possible, but is there the political will (undermined as it is by the efforts of the "intellectual backers" of the Islamist insurgency on the home front) and can reason triumph over ethnic and religious pseudo-divisions?
[Hermit 3] You shouldn't admit to supporting war crimes and crimes against humanity unless forced to. I understand that failing to say "Heil" or "Comrade" loudly enough could in certain circumstances have been hazardous to the health, but not even in a world where Tony Blair can railroad laws banning free speech into effect, could failing to genuflect to the neocons be inferred to imply "glorification of terrorism." Or could it?
[Hermit 3] Tribal divisions will out. As do religious divisions (that was why we humans invented them). And Iraq (along with Iran and Kuwait) was a British invention to leave the UK firmly in control of Mesopotamian oil after they got through with killing Kurds. And the Americans have promised Turkey that Iraq will be maintained as a unitary state. Which means that it will continue to be a state of misery. Despite all your hopes - which I hope you will excuse me saying, smack to me as being as plaintive and wishful as Condoleeza Rice's questioning the outcome of the democratic process in the Palestine, "I’ve asked why nobody saw it coming?" whatever makes you think that a "secular democracy" is a possible, let alone likely outcome of the brutality and poverty we have inflicted on Iraq?
[Jonathan Davis 2] I believe so. We will see which of us is right this time too.
[Hermit 3] We all know about belief. And yes, history - when not written by the victors, does tend to be fairly definitive. Your "too" seems misplaced though. Saying that you think that the US' publicly acknowledged $ 1.6 billion a month direct military expenditure and goodness' knows how much secret money, along with hundreds of deaths - and two trainloads of explosives per Taliban death (about double the amount needed by the Russians for each of their Northern Alliance eliminations) - supporting the brutish non-secular pseudo democracy controlling Kabul (and nothing else), a regime worse even than that instigated by the Soviets (who spent less to control more of it - and it still bankrupted them) makes you "right" about Afghanistan does not mean that you were (or are) correct in any usual sense of the word. As I have requested before, please read what I wrote - and argue against that - not against straw men.
[Jonathan Davis 2] "Proudly exposing Hermit's innaccurate predictions since 2001"
[Hermit 3] You are invited to provide references for these alleged "inaccurate predictions" which you have supposedly "exposed". Not being emotionally invested in my positions, I will, as usual support or acknowledge them as seems appropriate. Right at the moment I fail to remember something I predicted incorrectly in 2001 which you "exposed", so I look forward to your refreshing my memory.
[Jonathan Davis 2] What is with the name calling "warmonger" and "pseudohistorian"? I though you were above all that.
[Hermit 3] I labelled them as I see them. Somebody who argues for or attempts to justify war, is a war monger in my books; just as a leader like Bush who carries out illegal wars is a war criminal; a nation like Israel which engages in genocide is genocidal; and an historian who attempts to introduce spurious "historicity" to blatantly preferred "fables" is a pseudo-historian. You are welcome to call them something else, and I expect you do. That will not affect reality or the opinion of history - which I am fairly sure will tend to support my view. But you are welcome to attempt to support some other epithet for them. I had not thought that their "premature" "gloating" would allow them to survive as "icons" of yours. It will be interesting to see you prove me wrong
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #5 on: 2006-03-01 06:46:39 » |
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Apropos of something, this letter, which I had not realized had been published, was written by those I judge to be "sensible people" (not warmongers), and was delivered to the Whitehouse shortly before the USA invaded Iraq. So much for the "We couldn't see it coming" and the "Intelligence all agreed about the threat" type arguments. But you judge for yourself. Which of the predictions made in this letter, particularly in the last paragraph of the section I have highlighted, would you say has turned out to be invalid?
Source: http://democracyrising.us/content/view/168/151/
[Highlighting below added by Hermit]
LETTER TO THE PRESIDENT
The Honorable George W. Bush
President of the United States of America
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Dear Mr. President:
We, the undersigned veterans who have served our country in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the 1991 Gulf War and other military conflicts, respectfully request an opportunity to meet with you about the threat of war between the United States and Iraq.
Mr. President, we are patriotic citizens and veterans who respect the office of the President and the ethics and values binding us together as Americans.
As such, we feel duty-bound to share with you our serious concerns regarding issues of national security, the appropriate use of our military strength, and the health and welfare of our active duty soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. Those of us who are veterans of the 1991 Gulf War can offer particular insight into the ongoing troubles in the Middle East, and the likely consequences of another war in that volatile region.
A dozen years ago, we helped liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation, and in the course of combat operations came face to face with brutality and the consequences of modern warfare. We learned how unpredictable the nature of war can be. And we learned that war-related losses are not simply experienced on the battlefield.
Following the 1991 Gulf War, we collectively failed to prevent Saddam Hussein's violent repression of a popular uprising and the unprecedented refugee flight that ensued. As a result, tens of thousands of innocent civilians died. In addition to those deaths, the war and immediate post-war conditions resulted in the excess deaths of 46,900 children under the age of five, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (September 24, 1992).
Over the long term, the 1991 Gulf War has had a lasting, detrimental impact on the health of countless people in the region, and on the health of American men and women who served there. Twelve years after the conflict, over 164,000 American Gulf War veterans are now considered disabled by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. That number increases daily.
The possibility of large-scale war between the U.S. and Iraq looms before us once again. For this urgent reason we would like to meet with you to discuss steps the United States and its allies can take to protect U.S. soldiers, allied forces, and Iraqi civilians from known and suspected hazards that would result from military operations.
We understand the risks that come with war and that there are times when such risks are necessary. However, we strongly question the need for a war at this time. Despite Secretary of State Colin Powell's report to the Security Council and the testimony of others in the administration, we are not convinced that coercive containment has failed, or that war has become necessary.
Our own intelligence agencies have consistently noted both the absence of an imminent threat from Iraq and reliable evidence of cooperation between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Again, we question whether this is the right time and the right war.
Further, we believe the risks involved in going to war, under the unclear and shifting circumstances that confront us today, are far greater than those faced in 1991. Instead of a desert war to liberate Kuwait, combat would likely involve protracted siege warfare, chaotic street-to-street fighting in Baghdad, and Iraqi civil conflict. If that occurs, we fear our own nation and Iraq would both suffer casualties not witnessed since Vietnam. We fear the resulting carnage and humanitarian consequences would further devastate Iraqi society and inflame an already volatile Middle East, and increase terrorism against U.S. citizens.
Our concerns about the potential human and material costs of a military conflict in Iraq are well substantiated. In the event of a war, the UN warns that 1.26 million children under the age of 5 in Iraq will be at risk of death. Within the initial weeks of conflict, the World Health Organization estimates 500,000 Iraqis would need immediate medical attention. Ten million Iraqis would need immediate humanitarian assistance and over 2 million Iraqis would be made homeless.
The scale of the crisis would be so large that the international community would be unable to prevent widespread suffering. For these reasons and more, it remains in our nation$B!G(Bs best interest to avoid another war. The risk of excessive civilian casualties like those predicted by the UN pose a grave risk to our national security, making the U.S. more of a target of retaliatory attacks by terrorists.
Mr. President, as our Commander-in-Chief, we recognize the immense responsibility you have to protect our homeland and keep our nation secure. As veterans who honorably served our nation in its wars, we believe that our perspectives, knowledge and expertise can aid you at this crucial time, as you continue to deliberate on whether or not to commit our nation to war.
We therefore request a meeting at your earliest possible convenience. We look forward to any opportunity to come together with you to discuss the matters we have raised.
Sincerely,
Vice Admiral Ralph Weymouth, USN, Retired
Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan, USN, Retired
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA, Retired
Colonel David H. Hackworth, USA, Retired
Colonel Larry Williams, USMC, Retired
Colonel James E Unterseher, USA, Retired
Colonel James B. Burkholder, USA, Retired
Colonel Roger F. Strand, USAF, Retired
Colonel Virginia A. Metcalf, USA, Retired
Colonel Mary H. Yeakel, USA, Retired
Colonel Henrik O. Lunde, USA, Retired
Colonel Bruce S. Jarstfer, USA, Retired
Colonel Thomas Patrick Chisholm, USA, Retired
Colonel James Steven Chandler, USA
Colonel James J. Kent, USA, Retired
Colonel Grace E. Squires, USA, Retired
Colonel Carol Anne O$B!G(BDonnell, USA, Retired
Captain Kris Kristofferson, USA, Retired
Captain Thomas C. Tindall Jr., USNR, Retired
Captain Herbert A. Blough, USN, Retired
Captain M. David Preston, USCG
Lieutenant Colonel Elizabeth K. McGillicuddy, USMC, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Ron T. Coley, USMC, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Walter M. Langford, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Ben T. Granade, Jr., USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Frank L. Houde, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Richard M. Renfro, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Gretchen T. Vanek, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Richard L. Schmitt, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Vernon E. Whitney, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Graydon Causey, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel William R. Smith, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel David C. Dellinger, USCG, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Anne N. Philiben, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel James A. Adams, Jr., USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Rupert Eldridge Pate, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel William J. Jacobs, USA, Retired
Commander Robert A. Wood, USNR, Retired
Commander John J. Kaso, USN, Retired
Commander Eugene M. Maresca, USNR, Retired
Commander William H. Busse, USNR, Retired
Commander David Bailey, USCG, Retired
Commander Philip Butler, Ph.D., USN, Retired
Commander Michael A. Kennedy, USN, Retired
Commander Theodore I. Bahn, USN, Retired
Commander Theodore Curtin, USN, Retired
Lieutenant Commander Daniel Fecko, USNR, Retired
Lieutenant Commander Jim W. Turnage, M.D., M.P.H., USN
Lieutenant Commander John Paul Brennan, USMC, Retired
Lieutenant Commander Thomas A. Egleston, USN
Lieutenant Commander Robert Swan Lawrence, USCG
Lieutenant Commander Dennis C. Hayzlett, USN
Lieutenant Commander Howard L. McFann, USN
Lieutenant Commander Lawrence George Thorne, USN
Lieutenant Commander David H. Gundy, USN
<big snip by Hermit - refer Democracy Rising for a complete list of signatories.>
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Blunderov
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #6 on: 2006-03-01 08:46:37 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2006-02-27 13:07:24 ...A pity that current International Law does not allow us to put the now rapidly retreating "intellectual" backers of these illegitimate attacks into the dock along with the political hacks and military executioners.
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[Blunderov] I'm in favour although it may need to be a largish dock; stadium size perhaps. The degree of complicity in the crime by the so called free press is a matter of some moment.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=10600
February Saturday 25th 2006 (17h09) :
Complicit media : Should They Face War Crimes Prosecutions ?
3 comment(s).
The journalists who are employed at major outlets have no fig leaf to hind under. In preface , I don’t know believe in war crimes prosection for the moronic neo-con websites . However , well educated , lavishly funded professional war agitators in the cable TV universe as well as their allied magazine and newspaper flagships need to feel the heat. They are no better than the radio announcers who fomented the genocide in Rwanda or hyped Der Fuhrer’s lies and cheered on his Anschluss. Before everyone starts screaming "censorship" , it is important to emphasise the cretins prosecuted should number between 10-20 , not hundreds or thousands. The Blood is on their hands . The brazen mendacity of these the "pseudo-journalists", the amoral witting manservants of ghastly Death and Horror, must not go unanswered in a ostensibly civilised society. NEVER AGAIN. Yes , it is true famed Establishment mandarins in the punditry class have been been trying to dragoon the United States into war the whole of my lifetime. But it is one thing for the Alsop Bros. to wax eloquent about the idiotic "Domino Theory", : "We must go to Nam lest the Commies capture Malaya and the Philippines, and SF." It is quite another matter for "pseudo -journalists" to brazenly conspire with the Pentagon to wittingly pawn off intelligence hoaxes on behalf of Israel and commercial interests who wish to loot the Wealth of Nations. This is not journalism but fraud masquerading as journalism. There is no first Ammendment protection for the torturers or the torturer’s apprentice in cabledom or those specialised war -agitating publications in their direct orbit.
By : Son of a Bush
February Saturday 25th 2006
[Bl.] But a journalist's lot is not an 'appy one.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/23/1454239
Legendary South African Journalist Alistair Sparks on Wiretapping and Torture, Under Apartheid and Bush
Submitted by davidswanson on Thu, 2006-02-23 16:12. Media
DEMOCRACY NOW!
We spend the hour with legendary South African editor and reporter Allister
Sparks. Sparks gained fame as editor of South Africa's Rand Daily Mail in
the late 1970s where he helped bring down a South African Prime Minister. He
also helped expose the death of anti-apartheid activist Stephen Biko at the
hands of South Africa's security forces. In 1995, South African president
Nelson Mandela appointed Sparks to the Board of the South African
Broadcasting Corporation.
Sparks discusses wiretapping and torture, under apartheid last century and
under the Bush administration today. He also discusses indicted Republican
lobbyist Jack Abramoff, and his ties to the apartheid regime.
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JD
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #7 on: 2006-03-02 07:16:38 » |
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2006-03-01 08:46:37
Quote from: Hermit on 2006-02-27 13:07:24 ...A pity that current International Law does not allow us to put the now rapidly retreating "intellectual" backers of these illegitimate attacks into the dock along with the political hacks and military executioners.
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[Blunderov] I'm in favour although it may need to be a largish dock; stadium size perhaps. The degree of complicity in the crime by the so called free press is a matter of some moment. |
Oh look, a show trial :-)
I presume you are kidding. The CoV espousing prosecuting people for their opinions? No way.
You would be joining the esteemed ranks of the Taliban, Soviets and Chinese Communist party.
Imagine Hermit lynched by Iowa yokels for being an "Intellectual backer" of heretical notions like Darwinism.
Setting aside whether they were right or wrong, and the fact that the law would have to account for omissions too.
By that standard all bystanders would have to report to the same gigantic dock for trial for the crime of NOT backing efforts to prevent or stop wrongs.
This you could in this scenario be on trial for anti-war opinions because Saddam was killing people and the oil for food program was costing thousands of lives.
Let's stick will our tradition of freedom of expression and freedom of belief.
Kind regards,
Jonathan
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Blunderov
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #8 on: 2006-03-02 08:08:34 » |
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Yes, I'm kidding though perhaps not in the case of the Judith Millers et al who deliberately and with malice aforethought fed lies to the public. Difficult to prosecute though.
Perhaps there should instead be a register for them like with sex offenders. I can picture the Oprah groupies taking vigilante action to drive them out of the industry that they have so disgraced. Perhaps posters would work: "A liar lives in this house. Do you know where your kids are?" And so forth.
Seriously, the 3rd estate has a lot to answer for. They have, for the most part, been enthusiastic little sucklers on the hind tit of the body corporate; a nutricious, if smelly, region. Some soul searching seems called for. (I think the Hermit's recommendations are very cogent in this regard.)
Regards.
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Hermit
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #9 on: 2006-03-02 08:16:54 » |
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I also note that Jonathan avoided my reply to his slush of aspersions. I wonder why that should be?
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #10 on: 2006-03-02 09:47:49 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2006-03-02 08:16:54
I also note that Jonathan avoided my reply to his slush of aspersions. I wonder that should be? |
Nah, I skimmed it.
Don't see much point in getting into a 10,000-per-response debate as I did in October 2001.
I also considered a "Hermit's Finest" post of your most dramatic claims, but decided it would rankle you and it would be an unkind act :-)
Please don't interpret my lack of detailed response to the post above as disrespect or lack of interest.
Bear in mind when or if you answer me that I may not have the time to fully answer you.
Kind regards
JD
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JD
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Re:Exodus of the Rats
« Reply #11 on: 2006-03-02 09:54:10 » |
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Quote from: Blunderov on 2006-03-02 08:08:34
Seriously, the 3rd estate has a lot to answer for. They have, for the most part, been enthusiastic little sucklers on the hind tit of the body corporate; a nutricious, if smelly, region. Some soul searching seems called for. (I think the Hermit's recommendations are very cogent in this regard. |
Actually I do agree with this. The press must be accountable in some way. Currently it is power without responsibility and that is by definition, tyranny.
I strongly recommend the magnificent book "The Elements of Journalism", it discusses core issues like this.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1843542285
The trick is to strike a balance between free speech and the fact that free speech though certain media are acts and powerful acts at that.
Kind regards
JD
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