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Topic: virus: Peanut Butter! (Read 2192 times) |
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deadletter-j
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virus: Peanut Butter!
« on: 2005-02-17 12:03:34 » |
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A little while ago I posted some preliminary information about some memetic ideas that I have been trying to find better words for. I believe I now have enough examples of the different items now to get some feedback on them. Help?
There are approximately 10 different directions (groups of people) that I have been pouring information into. In several of the groups that I have been talking to, I came in like a bull terrier and poured out Too Much Information. This created responses, which I will describe.
Here, instead, I would like to avoid that problem. I am _asking_ permission to tell about this work. I think some of it will make you very excited. Some of it is really, really funny.
To me, all of this is the same thing - to get _examples_ of how memes spread, so that we can talk about them and make positive use of these ideas _about_ how memes spread. The meta meme. the meme about memes. I come in expecting people here to have lots of good ideas, ways of looking at things, knowledge that I do not have. I define 'infection' of this meme as participating in a discussion about how memes spread, about communities act and react to information. Since I consider myself strongly a Virian, I hope that you will accept me as part of the 'we'. If you feel that I am not part of the WE of CoV, let us discuss it first.
Here are the different memes, named and with metadata.
#1) The WELL - The Whole Earth Lectronic Link is one of the oldest BBS systems on the web. In October, I arrived and announced my intention to infect everyone with a viral meme. Even as the meme itself spread around the system, blowback shut down the conversation after about a month.
#2) Dead Letter K - Karla Clark - I layered the idea into Karla Clark in late October. The relatively violent methodology of that early attempt caused her to stop talking to me for about two weeks. After that, we worked to manage blowback in the system (our friendship) until recently, at which point she stopped being buffeted by information flow from me and began taking control of the system.
#3) Nutbutter Tribe - We took a trip to Whistler, where I attempted to layer the entire idea into a group of friends of the Burning Man variety. We made up a tribe to be 'meta' to the Great Seattle Takeover of '07 (below) called nutbutter, and synthesized a very very important meme: PEANUT BUTTER. If anyone says 'Peanut Butter', I have to stop talking about metaviral shit.
#4) Level 3 - In January, I began working on Richard Brodie's email list. I had learned that we are vulnerable to announcements of intentions, so I announced my intent to infect them with a viral meme. Blowback in the system nearly kicked us to entropy (silence), averted by the efforts of Eva Lise-Carlstrom, who put forth an honest effort to teach me how to talk in the Level 3 way. Now another person from Nutbutter has joined this list, and the two of us are talking with them together.
#5) The WELL - second insertion. I've been back on the WELL, putting the system through another data hit. Plenty to tell about this one.
#6) Fish Taco - I pushed the meme a little too hard at a party this weekend and left enough people feeling overwhelmed and annoyed that it cascaded around the community. Fortunately, there seems to be a large enough component who understand what this is all about that they are working to mitigate blowback. We'll see how that turns out. I definitely need to apologize to a couple of people.
#7) The Great Seattle Makeover of 07 - We believe that the use of memetic strategies will allow us to take over every single political office in Seattle. Portland, Ann Arbor, and other cities expected to try strategies simultaneously. This one has the best stories.
# CoV - self-reflective - With the CoV, I have tried to take a very polite, almost obsequious tone, with referents to greater quantities of information farther out. While this strategy has clearly broadcasted my intentions, it also hasn't created any angry blowback yet - which could also mean that no one is listening.
#9) Mathematics Education/School District - I turned the kids loose in all directions, and watched where they went. After several months, some patterns emerged in what was actually interesting. The math is restacking into ways that is actually comprehensible to anyone. I intend to spread this meme around the district next year. Also part of the Great Seattle Makeover of 07.
#10) Antivirus, The Game. After going a little too far this weekend with Fish Taco, the idea re-emerged as a GAME. As a game, it is much more fun and funny to work on each others minds.
So again, I have been dumping raw information about memetics in all of these directions. At the center of all of these directions is me, the person, trying really hard to understand a vision I had about memetics in October (before I even knew it was called memetics).
Would anyone like to know about any of these attempts?
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter!
« Reply #1 on: 2005-02-17 16:53:24 » |
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To the question at the bottom.
"Would anyone like to know about any of these attempts? "
Yes. Most assuredly.
Memetic transmission theories might awaken some of the sleeping giants
on the list.
Walter
Ben Grad - Dead Letter B wrote:
>A little while ago I posted some preliminary information about some memetic ideas that I have been trying to find better words for. I believe I now have enough examples of the different items now to get some feedback on them. Help?
>
>
><snip>
>
>
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deadletter-j
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter!
« Reply #2 on: 2005-02-17 18:48:59 » |
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I don't want to dive into all of them at once - I've learned that lesson! Now that I have finally got it down to something with enough examples, entry points, that I can present it through all of these areas and more, I am asking for you to pick one. That way, by virtue of your choice, you have 'given permission' as it were for the information to come out. Inviting me in, as it were...
So - a preference? We have to start somewhere.
We recently rewrote it as "Antivirus, a Game", which is intended to hone people, any person, towards resistance and awareness of our communication vulnerabilities. Care to give it a try?
-b
On Feb 17, 2005, at 1:53 PM, Walter Watts wrote:
To the question at the bottom.
"Would anyone like to know about any of these attempts? "
Yes. Most assuredly.
Memetic transmission theories might awaken some of the sleeping giants on the list.
Walter
Ben Grad - Dead Letter B wrote:
A little while ago I posted some preliminary information about some memetic ideas that I have been trying to find better words for. I believe I now have enough examples of the different items now to get some feedback on them. Help?
<snip>
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deadletter-j
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virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #3 on: 2005-02-20 17:38:54 » |
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Hello. My name is Benjamin Grad. I am hoping to start a memetic
revolution.
Here is what I have been doing - I have been talking with everyone in
every direction about what they are doing. What actions are they taking
to make their lives better? How could that action be assisted?
The goal is to get people with different world-changing projects to be
supported memetically - that brains around the country a) know what is
being tried, and b) help by thinking about it, evaluating it, etc.
I have been under the impression that the CoV is the perfect place for
this - it seems very quiet! If CoV is a meme, and a meme is viral, then
it spreads to others. I'm saying we begin undertaking actions to
promote memetics. There is a methodology to it, a way that makes
perfect sense once we see it.
I am trying to start a conversation here. I'm trying to figure out how
to get the conversation started.
I've tried:
Overviews - please select from this information menu
Raw Data - examples of the early versions of raw data conversations
Explanations - metadata about the raw data
Nonlinear vision flow - easy to write, hard to read
I have offered to talk about people that I am 'working' with to
understand this concept, and I would love to talk about it more...
except that a critical component is that I would like the system to
engage with me on the information - to construct a shared understanding
together.
I am asking for someone on the CoV list to make a choice - what part of
this to pick from?
a) strategies for inserting memes into conversations
b) baby memes being collected from different groups around the world?
c) groups that have been rolled into the action/reaction spiral that
begins the work?
d) plans to take over the planet?
It's about information hijacking, people! Where are the information
hijackers?
Where can we discuss theory?
-b
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #4 on: 2005-02-21 03:39:11 » |
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[Blunderov] Patience dear fellow. I have something under construction
but its taking time and thought. I think you may find that Virions are
wont to express themselves carefully - this is quite a rigorous crew.
In the mean time I will say that my personal view of memetics is that it
is chiefly a metaphorical lens useful for the observation of culture.
But I admit this by no means the whole story - the understanding that
this observation brings certainly provides for the possibility of
manipulating that culture.
Why promote memetics as such? If I read you aright, you seem to me to be
a sort of intellectual Trotskyite espousing the cause of constant
revolution and I believe there is lot to recommend this view. But it is
a very hard row to hoe!
Best Regards.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf
Of global_hijack
Sent: 21 February 2005 00:39
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Peanut Butter
Hello. My name is Benjamin Grad. I am hoping to start a memetic
revolution.
Here is what I have been doing - I have been talking with everyone in
every direction about what they are doing. What actions are they taking
to make their lives better? How could that action be assisted?
The goal is to get people with different world-changing projects to be
supported memetically - that brains around the country a) know what is
being tried, and b) help by thinking about it, evaluating it, etc.
I have been under the impression that the CoV is the perfect place for
this - it seems very quiet! If CoV is a meme, and a meme is viral, then
it spreads to others. I'm saying we begin undertaking actions to
promote memetics. There is a methodology to it, a way that makes
perfect sense once we see it.
I am trying to start a conversation here. I'm trying to figure out how
to get the conversation started.
I've tried:
Overviews - please select from this information menu
Raw Data - examples of the early versions of raw data
conversations
Explanations - metadata about the raw data
Nonlinear vision flow - easy to write, hard to read
I have offered to talk about people that I am 'working' with to
understand this concept, and I would love to talk about it more...
except that a critical component is that I would like the system to
engage with me on the information - to construct a shared understanding
together.
I am asking for someone on the CoV list to make a choice - what part of
this to pick from?
a) strategies for inserting memes into conversations
b) baby memes being collected from different groups around the world?
c) groups that have been rolled into the action/reaction spiral that
begins the work?
d) plans to take over the planet?
It's about information hijacking, people! Where are the information
hijackers?
Where can we discuss theory?
-b
---
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<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #6 on: 2005-02-25 16:38:12 » |
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Thanks for providing the put-down, Erik! We would hate to be out-botted in
our programatic message! Let global hijack emerse its/his/her/self in
CoV's archives and come back with some personal insights. In the meantime
let's stick to Reason, Empathy, Vision and release our hypocrisy, apathy,
and dogmatism. After you are done with that, I have some Pancritical
Rationalism, Compassion, and Transhumanist Vision to infect your thoughts.
Rx Rev. Jake Sapiens
cryptically yours, :-)
> [Original Message]
> From: Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com>
> To: Church of Virus <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 02/21/2005 9:22:40 AM
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> Note: You're starting to sound like a bot. That's the good news.
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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deadletter-j
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #7 on: 2005-02-25 18:09:06 » |
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haha! That's funny!
Okay, I have been working on an idea for a few months, and for this
community, I need to present it in scientific language. So I have been
working on that.
In it's shortest form, the idea is that people are vulnerable to
information from a particular direction. For some reason, information
framed correctly, from this direction, goes in and comes out as if the
being, individual or community, had thought of it itself.
I see ad agencies, movies, individuals making use of this all the time
- unfortunately, merely because I see it does not make me the most
effective person to _do_ it.
Because I have a lot of respect for the CoV list, I don't want to
inundate you with page after page after page - a) this group already
knows how to deal with that, by ignoring it, and b) it takes awhile for
someone to 'get' what I am talking about and help translate for the
community.
It comes down to understanding how people store information in our
heads - except that not everybody has stored a lot of self-referential
bits of information in their heads. So what can I speak to that will
let you 'get' what I mean?
So I've been working on mathematical metaphors to explain it. I truly
do intend to post it up once I feel that I can make the over-arching
idea clear, with separate essays for each part. That way, we can pick
it apart in the micro and macro.
Three questions, as I go:
Do humans like threes or fives better? Why do you think so?
Have you ever thought that arguing with someone was making them
stronger?
What is the farthest vision (in time) you have for your own life?
Notice anything as you think about that vision?
-ben
On Feb 25, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Jake Sapiens wrote:
> Thanks for providing the put-down, Erik! We would hate to be
> out-botted in
> our programatic message! Let global hijack emerse its/his/her/self in
> CoV's archives and come back with some personal insights. In the
> meantime
> let's stick to Reason, Empathy, Vision and release our hypocrisy,
> apathy,
> and dogmatism. After you are done with that, I have some Pancritical
> Rationalism, Compassion, and Transhumanist Vision to infect your
> thoughts.
> Rx Rev. Jake Sapiens
>
> cryptically yours, :-)
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com>
>> To: Church of Virus <virus@lucifer.com>
>> Date: 02/21/2005 9:22:40 AM
>> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>>
>> Note: You're starting to sound like a bot. That's the good news.
>> ---
>> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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ObfuscatoryAlias
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Re:virus: Peanut Butter!
« Reply #8 on: 2005-02-25 19:57:55 » |
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3 or 5.... Well, in terms of ratios, 3 can appeal to the rule of thirds but it is off a bit. 5 is more strongly suggestive of symmetry. A friend of mine who studies quantitative psychology was just telling me about behavioral studies that illustrate people's tendency to favor symmetry. I would say that a combination of 3, 5, and 8 is also appealing because a 3/5 division within 8 is close to the golden rule ratio of 1.618.
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #9 on: 2005-03-01 18:31:22 » |
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OK. good to see that someone feels like starting something who doesn't
want to innundate us. Of course I don't particularly mind being innundated
somewhat if the material actually comes from a "real person" whom we can
question onlist, preferably you. This always remained my biggest complaint
about people that CoV has collectively worked to ignore -- the enormous
volumes of cut and pastes. I can think of other ways to disrupt
conversations, or otherwise make an ass of myself, but I think this becomes
one of the more unforgivable problems. Not to speak of the dead too much
but cut and paste was the primary mode of communicating for our most recent
disrupter. Mostly he didn't pretend it was his, but I can recall a
transition period where at times it didn't appear obvious. Some on here
have had apparently worse attitudes, but didn't cause the same level of
disruption.
comments inserted below.
> [Original Message]
> From: global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 02/25/2005 3:09:35 PM
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> haha! That's funny!
>
>
> Okay, I have been working on an idea for a few months, and for this
> community, I need to present it in scientific language. So I have been
> working on that.
>
> In it's shortest form, the idea is that people are vulnerable to
> information from a particular direction. For some reason, information
> framed correctly, from this direction, goes in and comes out as if the
> being, individual or community, had thought of it itself.
>
> I see ad agencies, movies, individuals making use of this all the time
> - unfortunately, merely because I see it does not make me the most
> effective person to _do_ it.
>
>
> Because I have a lot of respect for the CoV list, I don't want to
> inundate you with page after page after page - a) this group already
> knows how to deal with that, by ignoring it, and b) it takes awhile for
> someone to 'get' what I am talking about and help translate for the
> community.
>
>
> It comes down to understanding how people store information in our
> heads - except that not everybody has stored a lot of self-referential
> bits of information in their heads. So what can I speak to that will
> let you 'get' what I mean?
>
>
> So I've been working on mathematical metaphors to explain it. I truly
> do intend to post it up once I feel that I can make the over-arching
> idea clear, with separate essays for each part. That way, we can pick
> it apart in the micro and macro.
promises, promises.
>
>
> Three questions, as I go:
>
> Do humans like threes or fives better? Why do you think so?
> Have you ever thought that arguing with someone was making them
> stronger?
> What is the farthest vision (in time) you have for your own life?
> Notice anything as you think about that vision?
That is actually five questions. I counted the punctuation  Good
questions though, I'll think about them . . . . Okay, I like threes better,
but actually my favorite theme comes down to three major topics with five
subtopics in various configurations. Fascinating!!! Yes, arguing with
people is a form of attention, even if negative. Some people have a
greater need for attention than others and so argument, even stupid ones
becomes a more attractive option for them than for the average Joe.
Although "Joe" might make a good name for one of those, as they are usually
males. I try to think in terms of immortality, but mostly my life reflects
of series of seven (at the most) year plans. I'm also divorced twice, so
my visions have certainly changed in that regard. I do have a certain
amount of cerebral canvass reserved for big thoughts, which I lovingly
refer to as "pie in the sky". Transhumanism gets a nice workout there. A
highly contingent place however, from my current PoV, so it ranks about
equal to minesweeper (one of my favorite games) in importance of effort
spent. Mostly I work on not dying young and avoid poverty, but that's just
me.
-Jake
>
> -ben
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Jake Sapiens wrote:
>
> > Thanks for providing the put-down, Erik! We would hate to be
> > out-botted in
> > our programatic message! Let global hijack emerse its/his/her/self in
> > CoV's archives and come back with some personal insights. In the
> > meantime
> > let's stick to Reason, Empathy, Vision and release our hypocrisy,
> > apathy,
> > and dogmatism. After you are done with that, I have some Pancritical
> > Rationalism, Compassion, and Transhumanist Vision to infect your
> > thoughts.
> > Rx Rev. Jake Sapiens
> >
> > cryptically yours, :-)
> >
> >> [Original Message]
> >> From: Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com>
> >> To: Church of Virus <virus@lucifer.com>
> >> Date: 02/21/2005 9:22:40 AM
> >> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
> >>
> >> Note: You're starting to sound like a bot. That's the good news.
> >> ---
> >> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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MoEnzyme
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #10 on: 2005-03-01 22:30:47 » |
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> [Original Message]
> From: global_hijack <global_hijack@speakeasy.net>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 02/25/2005 3:09:35 PM
> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
>
> haha! That's funny!
>
>
> Okay, I have been working on an idea for a few months, and for this
> community, I need to present it in scientific language. So I have been
> working on that.
How would scientific language be any different from normal language? I
think the point with this group lies in not violating scientific
understandings and respecting scientific process, not in talking in some
particularly scientific sounding language. Indeed, scientific language
sounds like something downright boring so if there really is such I thing,
I might feel tempted to recommend against it. Wouldn't a good memeticist
inspire attention, instead of killing it? Or have I misunderstood you?
-Jake
>
> In it's shortest form, the idea is that people are vulnerable to
> information from a particular direction. For some reason, information
> framed correctly, from this direction, goes in and comes out as if the
> being, individual or community, had thought of it itself.
>
> I see ad agencies, movies, individuals making use of this all the time
> - unfortunately, merely because I see it does not make me the most
> effective person to _do_ it.
>
>
> Because I have a lot of respect for the CoV list, I don't want to
> inundate you with page after page after page - a) this group already
> knows how to deal with that, by ignoring it, and b) it takes awhile for
> someone to 'get' what I am talking about and help translate for the
> community.
>
>
> It comes down to understanding how people store information in our
> heads - except that not everybody has stored a lot of self-referential
> bits of information in their heads. So what can I speak to that will
> let you 'get' what I mean?
>
>
> So I've been working on mathematical metaphors to explain it. I truly
> do intend to post it up once I feel that I can make the over-arching
> idea clear, with separate essays for each part. That way, we can pick
> it apart in the micro and macro.
>
>
> Three questions, as I go:
>
> Do humans like threes or fives better? Why do you think so?
> Have you ever thought that arguing with someone was making them
> stronger?
> What is the farthest vision (in time) you have for your own life?
> Notice anything as you think about that vision?
>
> -ben
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2005, at 1:38 PM, Jake Sapiens wrote:
>
> > Thanks for providing the put-down, Erik! We would hate to be
> > out-botted in
> > our programatic message! Let global hijack emerse its/his/her/self in
> > CoV's archives and come back with some personal insights. In the
> > meantime
> > let's stick to Reason, Empathy, Vision and release our hypocrisy,
> > apathy,
> > and dogmatism. After you are done with that, I have some Pancritical
> > Rationalism, Compassion, and Transhumanist Vision to infect your
> > thoughts.
> > Rx Rev. Jake Sapiens
> >
> > cryptically yours, :-)
> >
> >> [Original Message]
> >> From: Erik Aronesty <erik@zoneedit.com>
> >> To: Church of Virus <virus@lucifer.com>
> >> Date: 02/21/2005 9:22:40 AM
> >> Subject: Re: virus: Peanut Butter
> >>
> >> Note: You're starting to sound like a bot. That's the good news.
> >> ---
> >> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
<http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
---
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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deadletter-j
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #11 on: 2005-03-02 22:14:21 » |
|
On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:30 PM, Jake Sapiens wrote:
>
> How would scientific language be any different from normal language? I
> think the point with this group lies in not violating scientific
> understandings and respecting scientific process, not in talking in
> some
> particularly scientific sounding language. Indeed, scientific language
> sounds like something downright boring so if there really is such I
> thing,
> I might feel tempted to recommend against it. Wouldn't a good
> memeticist
> inspire attention, instead of killing it? Or have I misunderstood you?
>
> -Jake
>
Darn! I have to say, I am having a hard time answering this simple
question.
When I say 'language', it might be better to say, 'local metaphor'. Or
better, 'local dialect'. Different people talk _about_ different
things. There's no point talking about dadaist philosophy with an
underfed teen in an afghani youth hostel - for that child, the same
idea might be fun to talk about getting a bunch of people to go tell
jokes to the Americans, to build up a certain sense of cameraderie
between the people and the Americans, which could then be tapped for
inflitration.
So how about an example of what a 'local language' might look like?
________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________
EXAMPLE 1 - MEMES GROWING TOGETHER TO BECOME OTHER MEMES - lernin to be
talkin' ter hicks in Alerbamer!
Let's suppose my passion in life is 'marijuana rights' or 'socialized
health care' or any number of other good meme-plexes. I want to spread
them, and so I begin practicing talking about them wherever I go. I
take actions that help people hear about them, and I learn how to
'phrase it' when I am around the rich possible sponsor types, the
down-dirty 'give me my pot to smoke' types, the law enforcement types,
etc.
Each one is the local version of the idea, so that the people can
'hear' it. I find a way to 'slip' my idea in, overtly or covertly, into
a conversation.
It hybridizes with the local conversation.
So that's what I mean when I say 'language'. Local language for the
CoV involves proving that there is a scientific basis. That means I
can't talk about it like I do with the woo woo hippies - which I do!
For them, the idea is about 'becoming one together with positive
intent'. Which, believe it or not, is actually the exact same idea.
They are trying to purify how they talk and how they act so that their
ideas will spill outwards into a larger sphere.
Take the LEGALIZE POT NOW meme - it's an example of an idea trying to
'grow into society'. I'm thinking of it here in a very organic sense.
And it sort of dies out in the media for a bit and then it rises
flaming in the sky as a very stoned phoenix.
<I closed that meme with an image, so that now if I refer to 'stoned
phoenix, you sort of know what I mean.>
Even better might be to remind you of C-Threepio, Chewbacka, Han, Leia,
Luke and R2D2 getting caught by the Ewoks - Luke tell C-Threepio what
to say, and he translates into basic soundbites because - as he
mentions - they use a slightly unusual dialect.
It's the root of storytelling, right? Learning to speak to the
audience. In this case, though - and this is important - the idea is
more thinking of the audience as 'the entire community of CoV over the
next ten years'. The more careful I am not to piss you off, the longer
and more fruitful our relationship will be.
Here's an example of me trying to talk about 'this idea' in the 'local
language' of the CoV:
________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________
EXAMPLE TWO: HYBRID VIGOUR vs. MEMES = GENES?
Don't we always talk about 'memes' like 'genes'? Well, what do genes
do? Genes are this crazy recombinant setup that, in their interactions,
create certain outcomes.
Often facial features, disease markers, etcs, come as a combination of
differing genomes - they aren't just 'one' genome which does all the
face, for example.
Memes can't be constructed so crudely either. They have a basic
structure of how they are carried around by us humans.
Why am I on about this? I think _jokes_ can be written which could
literally, take over the world. Jokes which carry an idea. That if
people are laughing, they are also _listening_. They are inspired to
pass it along.
They also pass it along when they get _angry_. And faster, too, because
it is a survival meme - let everyone know if something makes you angry!
So if memes are like genes, that ideas have all sorts of different
things, parts, pieces, components, data, data structures, retrieval
hardware, retrieval software that we would need to understand, then a
conversation ABOUT memes is going to have different parts.
So if MEMES are pretty darn complex, then CONVERSATIONS ABOUT MEMES are
going to be complex. Like the writing here in this email.
________________________________________________________________________
__________________
<For the confused reader: Hello! Basically, this section is trying to
ask for permission to start a conversation about confusion and how we
get from confusion to clarity. Hidden in that pattern is a whole bunch
of interesting and funny shit. Can you live with that? Remember, if it
is confusing, you can ignore it until it seems clearer. It takes me a
little while to figure out 'who' I am talking to. Sorry about that. I'm
trying.>
<For the reader who was following, till that little aside, imagine you
were NOT following until a little note seemed to call you back in.>
Here's an overview so far:
A) I looked at Jake's question about what did I mean by saying what
'Language' are we speaking?
B) I gave an example about learning to speak to new people
C) I gave an example of how memes, if they were like genes, would have
separate parts interacting
D) I stopped and gave us a pause, looking back over where we just were.
E) I will explain what I 'mean' about how these two examples are
connected
E) Making connections: How does EXAMPLE 1 match EXAMPLE 2?
Example one was giving an idea of what it would be like to 'talk to the
locals'. Example two talks about the complexity of talking about memes
if they are even anything remotely like genes.
Especially if the goal is to put the entire field of memetics on a
sound operating structure. Without some sort of solid foundation,
memetics is foundering as 'phenomenology' - it's great to study how
fast a joke crosses the planet, it's another altogether to be generate
an joke that is designed to travel around the world.
So example one was about talking to Ewoks, and example two was actually
an example in which I tried to speak in a local metaphor to demonstrate
what it is like to try to talk to the locals.
Example 1 - Hey! I'm going to try talk to you Ewoks in local language!
Example 2 - "Hey! Did you see the Wookie? Him got big penis!"
IN CONCLUSION:
It's this weird self-reflective conversation about conversation. So
when I mean 'local language', I mean, 'what do you want to talk about?.
If you want to talk about what I mean when I use the word 'language', I
will talk about that, and seriously, I could explain a LOT further what
I mean about using the word 'language' here, involving geometry,
information science, language acquisition, meta-syntax, blah blah blah
PEANUT BUTTER.
I will end here. I hope that this was a FUN email to read. It's
frustratingly dense. As we pick and settle onto one 'thing' to discuss
for awhile, it should get easier for me to stop second-guessing how
self-reflective to get.
Thanks for reading.
-b
ps. If this adequately answers your question about what I mean by the
word 'language', I will dump an email essay I have been working on.
Otherwise, let's talk about this idea more - that ideas have to be
spread by layering them into the language, and that the so doing
creates a new language.
I'm always put in mind of that advertisement for Reeces Peanut Butter
Cups, where they would always say,
"Your PEANUT BUTTER got stuck in my CHOCOLATE!"
"Well, your CHOCOLATE got stuck in my PEANUT BUTTER!"
And then there was a flash, and VOILA! Reeces Cups!
Closing with a weird meta-joke:
What we need is some video footage of a stoned phoenix trying to talk
to some wookie-fucking genome deficient ewoks about Peanut Butter and
Chocolate.
While an underfed Afghani teen begins to try to get close to Americans
to gain their trust in order to infiltrate the American Oppressor, not
realizing that TRUST GOES BOTH WAYS.
P.S. A difficulty is that, while intellectually, I know that some of
what I have written won't make sense or fit together, to me, this makes
perfect sense.
May I posit that the reason some of this may seem odd is because there
is just so MUCH of it?
---
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #12 on: 2005-03-03 02:40:29 » |
|
On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:30 PM, Jake Sapiens wrote:
>
> How would scientific language be any different from normal language? I
> think the point with this group lies in not violating scientific
> understandings and respecting scientific process, not in talking in
> some
> particularly scientific sounding language. Indeed, scientific language
> sounds like something downright boring so if there really is such I
> thing,
> I might feel tempted to recommend against it. Wouldn't a good
> memeticist
> inspire attention, instead of killing it? Or have I misunderstood you?
>
> -Jake
>
Darn! I have to say, I am having a hard time answering this simple
question.
When I say 'language', it might be better to say, 'local metaphor'. Or
better, 'local dialect'. Different people talk _about_ different
things. There's no point talking about dadaist philosophy with an
underfed teen in an afghani youth hostel - for that child, the same
idea might be fun to talk about getting a bunch of people to go tell
jokes to the Americans, to build up a certain sense of cameraderie
between the people and the Americans, which could then be tapped for
inflitration.
So how about an example of what a 'local language' might look like?
________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________
EXAMPLE 1 - MEMES GROWING TOGETHER TO BECOME OTHER MEMES - lernin to be
talkin' ter hicks in Alerbamer!
Let's suppose my passion in life is 'marijuana rights' or 'socialized
health care' or any number of other good meme-plexes. I want to spread
them, and so I begin practicing talking about them wherever I go. I
take actions that help people hear about them, and I learn how to
'phrase it' when I am around the rich possible sponsor types, the
down-dirty 'give me my pot to smoke' types, the law enforcement types,
etc.
Each one is the local version of the idea, so that the people can
'hear' it. I find a way to 'slip' my idea in, overtly or covertly, into
a conversation.
It hybridizes with the local conversation.
So that's what I mean when I say 'language'. Local language for the
CoV involves proving that there is a scientific basis. That means I
can't talk about it like I do with the woo woo hippies - which I do!
For them, the idea is about 'becoming one together with positive
intent'. Which, believe it or not, is actually the exact same idea.
They are trying to purify how they talk and how they act so that their
ideas will spill outwards into a larger sphere.
Take the LEGALIZE POT NOW meme - it's an example of an idea trying to
'grow into society'. I'm thinking of it here in a very organic sense.
And it sort of dies out in the media for a bit and then it rises
flaming in the sky as a very stoned phoenix.
<I closed that meme with an image, so that now if I refer to 'stoned
phoenix, you sort of know what I mean.>
Even better might be to remind you of C-Threepio, Chewbacka, Han, Leia,
Luke and R2D2 getting caught by the Ewoks - Luke tell C-Threepio what
to say, and he translates into basic soundbites because - as he
mentions - they use a slightly unusual dialect.
It's the root of storytelling, right? Learning to speak to the
audience. In this case, though - and this is important - the idea is
more thinking of the audience as 'the entire community of CoV over the
next ten years'. The more careful I am not to piss you off, the longer
and more fruitful our relationship will be.
Here's an example of me trying to talk about 'this idea' in the 'local
language' of the CoV:
________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________
EXAMPLE TWO: HYBRID VIGOUR vs. MEMES = GENES?
Don't we always talk about 'memes' like 'genes'? Well, what do genes
do? Genes are this crazy recombinant setup that, in their interactions,
create certain outcomes.
Often facial features, disease markers, etcs, come as a combination of
differing genomes - they aren't just 'one' genome which does all the
face, for example.
Memes can't be constructed so crudely either. They have a basic
structure of how they are carried around by us humans.
Why am I on about this? I think _jokes_ can be written which could
literally, take over the world. Jokes which carry an idea. That if
people are laughing, they are also _listening_. They are inspired to
pass it along.
They also pass it along when they get _angry_. And faster, too, because
it is a survival meme - let everyone know if something makes you angry!
So if memes are like genes, that ideas have all sorts of different
things, parts, pieces, components, data, data structures, retrieval
hardware, retrieval software that we would need to understand, then a
conversation ABOUT memes is going to have different parts.
So if MEMES are pretty darn complex, then CONVERSATIONS ABOUT MEMES are
going to be complex. Like the writing here in this email.
________________________________________________________________________
__________________
<For the confused reader: Hello! Basically, this section is trying to
ask for permission to start a conversation about confusion and how we
get from confusion to clarity. Hidden in that pattern is a whole bunch
of interesting and funny shit. Can you live with that? Remember, if it
is confusing, you can ignore it until it seems clearer. It takes me a
little while to figure out 'who' I am talking to. Sorry about that. I'm
trying.>
<For the reader who was following, till that little aside, imagine you
were NOT following until a little note seemed to call you back in.>
Here's an overview so far:
A) I looked at Jake's question about what did I mean by saying what
'Language' are we speaking?
B) I gave an example about learning to speak to new people
C) I gave an example of how memes, if they were like genes, would have
separate parts interacting
D) I stopped and gave us a pause, looking back over where we just were.
E) I will explain what I 'mean' about how these two examples are
connected
E) Making connections: How does EXAMPLE 1 match EXAMPLE 2?
Example one was giving an idea of what it would be like to 'talk to the
locals'. Example two talks about the complexity of talking about memes
if they are even anything remotely like genes.
Especially if the goal is to put the entire field of memetics on a
sound operating structure. Without some sort of solid foundation,
memetics is foundering as 'phenomenology' - it's great to study how
fast a joke crosses the planet, it's another altogether to be generate
an joke that is designed to travel around the world.
So example one was about talking to Ewoks, and example two was actually
an example in which I tried to speak in a local metaphor to demonstrate
what it is like to try to talk to the locals.
Example 1 - Hey! I'm going to try talk to you Ewoks in local language!
Example 2 - "Hey! Did you see the Wookie? Him got big penis!"
IN CONCLUSION:
It's this weird self-reflective conversation about conversation. So
when I mean 'local language', I mean, 'what do you want to talk about?.
If you want to talk about what I mean when I use the word 'language', I
will talk about that, and seriously, I could explain a LOT further what
I mean about using the word 'language' here, involving geometry,
information science, language acquisition, meta-syntax, blah blah blah
PEANUT BUTTER.
I will end here. I hope that this was a FUN email to read. It's
frustratingly dense. As we pick and settle onto one 'thing' to discuss
for awhile, it should get easier for me to stop second-guessing how
self-reflective to get.
Thanks for reading.
-b
ps. If this adequately answers your question about what I mean by the
word 'language', I will dump an email essay I have been working on.
Otherwise, let's talk about this idea more - that ideas have to be
spread by layering them into the language, and that the so doing
creates a new language.
I'm always put in mind of that advertisement for Reeces Peanut Butter
Cups, where they would always say,
"Your PEANUT BUTTER got stuck in my CHOCOLATE!"
"Well, your CHOCOLATE got stuck in my PEANUT BUTTER!"
And then there was a flash, and VOILA! Reeces Cups!
Closing with a weird meta-joke:
What we need is some video footage of a stoned phoenix trying to talk
to some wookie-fucking genome deficient ewoks about Peanut Butter and
Chocolate.
While an underfed Afghani teen begins to try to get close to Americans
to gain their trust in order to infiltrate the American Oppressor, not
realizing that TRUST GOES BOTH WAYS.
P.S. A difficulty is that, while intellectually, I know that some of
what I have written won't make sense or fit together, to me, this makes
perfect sense.
May I posit that the reason some of this may seem odd is because there
is just so MUCH of it?
---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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hkhenson@rogers...
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #13 on: 2005-03-04 09:10:41 » |
|
At 11:40 PM 02/03/05 -0800, global_hijack wrote:
snip
I am reminded of the intensity of the very early days of the L5
Society/space colony meme.
There was a guy who was so taken with the space colony idea and Dr.
O'Neill's casual statement that he needed funding to complete his book that
he *robbed a bank*!
He got caught of course. I think the judge went fairly light on him, but
at this distance I don't remember the details of the aftermath.
Anyway . . . . When you are intensely caught up in a meme, people who are
even more caught up have to be appreciated even if they do go off the rails.
The problem is that memetics is much like epidemiology. It goes a long
ways to explain how people spread all over the earth with the aide of
"culture," that collection of memes or replicating information patterns.
But the frame is too small to explain why *this* meme and not *that* meme
became ascendant. For that you have to look other places, like physics or
chemistry to understand why a meme of using dry stuff to make fires will do
better than a meme of making fires with damp stuff.
To understand the hold cult memes like scientology get on people you really
need to understand evolutionary psychology and the environment of small
tribes in which our ancestors were reproductively successful while our
non-ancestors failed.
And if you want to understand the partly memetic mechanisms that lead to
wars, you need to understand that a meme that does poorly in an unstressed
population may become the dominate meme in a population under stress.
Most of you on this list are up on these subjects. For those who are not I
can provide pointers if they are wanted.
Keith Henson
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deadletter-j
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How many Engstrom's does it take?
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Re: virus: Peanut Butter
« Reply #14 on: 2005-03-05 15:39:22 » |
|
I'm not certain which person I am, in this story: Am I Dr. O'Neill or
the bank robber? I tend to think the former. You may think the latter!
I hear you say that the frame is too small - I agree, it has been.
Therefore I am hoping we can begin a discussion about broadening that
framework.
One thing that I believe will be important will be to 'keep track' of
our conversation - it is a complex conversation already, and we've
hardly said anything!
Here's a short version:
Ben says - "let's put it in CoV language"
Jake says - "What do you mean by language?"
Ben says - "Here, let me explain what I mean by language, and then I
will send a long complicated email."
Keith says - "I interpret you as a slightly off-the-rails overzealous
memetics freak"
Ben - "I haven't even gotten started yet!"
So I've got this huge email I have been working on, in five sections.
Whenever I get the green light that we are done discussing the basic
concept of 'local language' - which I'm not sure we have, I will dump
the email.
The email has currently five sections:
a) Weird self-reflective intro piece
b) An example of a meme that scales in and out
c) Examples of in-and-out scales
d) Why are we having this conversation?
e) Freeman Dyson's Unit's of Survival
So far we have defined a local usage for the word 'language' - yes, or
no?
-b
On Mar 4, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
>
> I am reminded of the intensity of the very early days of the L5
> Society/space colony meme.
>
> There was a guy who was so taken with the space colony idea and Dr.
> O'Neill's casual statement that he needed funding to complete his book
> that he *robbed a bank*!
>
> He got caught of course. I think the judge went fairly light on him,
> but at this distance I don't remember the details of the aftermath.
>
> Anyway . . . . When you are intensely caught up in a meme, people who
> are even more caught up have to be appreciated even if they do go off
> the rails.
>
> The problem is that memetics is much like epidemiology. It goes a
> long ways to explain how people spread all over the earth with the
> aide of "culture," that collection of memes or replicating information
> patterns.
>
> But the frame is too small to explain why *this* meme and not *that*
> meme became ascendant. For that you have to look other places, like
> physics or chemistry to understand why a meme of using dry stuff to
> make fires will do better than a meme of making fires with damp stuff.
>
> To understand the hold cult memes like scientology get on people you
> really need to understand evolutionary psychology and the environment
> of small tribes in which our ancestors were reproductively successful
> while our non-ancestors failed.
>
> And if you want to understand the partly memetic mechanisms that lead
> to wars, you need to understand that a meme that does poorly in an
> unstressed population may become the dominate meme in a population
> under stress.
>
> Most of you on this list are up on these subjects. For those who are
> not I can provide pointers if they are wanted.
>
> Keith Henson
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to
> <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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