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Topic: RE: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis. (Read 888 times) |
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DrSebby
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RE: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
« on: 2004-10-20 20:54:41 » |
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...my generalized response to the religion question is as follows:
...if you consider one religion, you must consider all religions. ...if you consider all religions, you must consider that many/most contradict all the others ...all religions are based on faith, therefore, w/o rules for devising them, the # of possible religions is infinite. ...if the number of possible religions is both infinite and entirely faith dependant, then it is impossible due to the time constraints of a lifetime to consider any of them as being true or false...or indeed to consider them at all. ...therefore, atheists should never be expected to have to defend or explain their position. to do so in the face of an infinite number of contradicting beliefs entirely lacking of evidence is not just futile, it is stupid.
drsebby.
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Gorogh" <gorogh@pallowrun.de> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: <virus@lucifer.com> Subject: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis. Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:55:10 +0200
... to deduce a new, better thesis to discuss.
The difference between (objects of) religious belief and (objects of) scientific belief is non-existent in an objective, categorical sense. My proposed solution as to how to judge the difference between religion and faith – apart from the correct but (as I just said) epistemologically refutable proposition of the objects of religious belief being unfalsifiable etc. – is as follows, devised to suppress the principally (not practically, as most of us will agree) correct response that “science is just another form of faith”.
The difference is not categorical but dimensional, a spectrum supposedly ranging from [passive belief/acceptance] to [active questioning/doubt]. I shall call this spectrum “inquisitiveness” (tendency to be inquisitive).
Inquisitiveness differs not only interindividually, but also intraindividually – by this I mean, that a person can be, in regard to a particular topic (of any solution (narrow or general), probably correlated with the amount of knowledge about the topic), very inquisitive – e.g., in regard to “faith in the correctness of mass media broadcasting” (“This guy writes nothing but bullshit!!” “Even the news are fake (by the Illuminati)!”). In regard to “faith in the bible”, a person might, AT THE SAME TIME, have a very low inquisitiveness (“whatever is written, it’s the word of God, we cannot doubt it”). Or vice versa; the examples are arbitrary.
Intraindividuality also refers to stability in time, i.e. e.g., if I am sceptical about the bible today, I might not be so tomorrow and accept it whole-heartedly the day after.
Inquisitiveness encompasses the realm of self-criticism, that is, the ability to question one’s own opinions, experiences, insights etc. Self-criticism is a ability on a meta-level. The more self-critical a person is, that is, the stronger his or her (meta-)inquisitiveness, the more that person will doubt his or her own experience. Probable (inverse) correlations with self-confidence are not explicitly proposed but not denied either.
Furthermore, this tendency obviously is dependent on capacity. The better a person is able to integrate information to abstract units, and the more units a person can keep present in his or her working memory at the same time, the “deeper” questions the person can ask. Persons with a low capacity do not “get as far” (I am conscious of the implications; btw, this is not arrogant, I am trying to be descriptive).
„To non-believe“ would become „rather questioning than believing/doubting than accepting”, “to believe” would become “rather believing than questioning/rather accepting than doubting” – nota bene, always in regard to the topics discussed.
In an average „believer”/“non-believer”-discussion, which topics are these? Basically, the topics are drawn from the whole spectrum covered by philosophy: Metaphysics, cosmology, ontology, ethics et cetera.
[I am explicitly excluding epistemology, because imho, it would eventually lead to nihilism, and we should only run the danger of conjuring it if we disagree that we CAN have insight into reality. The above attempted synthesis probably even tries to cut loose the “inquisitiveness” from epistemology and draw it unto a more behavioural basis. We (I am referring to “believers” and “non-believers”) are not left with many alternatives, if we want to have meaningful conversation. Granted, to question inquisitiveness is impossible without subscribing to it, it is thus a circular, but imho plausible and pragmatic explanatory model.]
My argument is, that religions give answers in regard to all of these topics which CAN be further questioned/doubted, while the scientific method declares questioning to its cardinal virtue and will celebrate it ad aeternitas. My argument is, that faith ALWAYS falls short of explanation, ALWAYS judges prematurely.
[Why I would welcome the death of religion – thus, the question of my opinion’s pragmatic implications – I will discuss at another time, just so much: IF we want to lead a life as I deem it good, THEN we must communicate; THE LESS prejudice exist on either side, THE BETTER communication will work; premature judgement EQUALS prejudice; all in all: religious faith hinders communication]
Metaphysics/cosmology: Religion: en to archä ho logos, In the beginning was the word and that means God etc. Amen. Metaphysics/cosmology: Science: We do not know what was there in the beginning, but we have certain clues... matter/energy apparently cannot become more or less... thus, it must have been there all the time... the universe seems to expand... hmmm, well, we have the hypothesis that etc.
Ontology: Science: Hmm… we have many species that have died out... this birch-butterfly’s (what the hell I don’t know the English word...) black mutant’s relative reproductive success correlates with the blackening of these birches due to soot emitted by these factories... how come?... evolution, natural selection and such, yes, a good idea for the present... and apart from evolution, what about abiogenesis?... well, no idea... coincidence? we don’t know, but we’re working at it... Ontology: Religion: God created the world in six days. Amen.
Ethics: Religion: We should behave in this way because thus it is written here in the bible. Amen. Ethics: Science: We don’t make any normative statements. Make up your own ethics – we cannot force you to, but from our viewpoint: Take care to make it as consensual and provisional as our theories are.
So far – thanks for reading, I probably wouldn’t have! :-D
Any opinions on this?
Björn
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Re: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
« Reply #1 on: 2004-10-21 03:28:16 » |
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Good Morning!
Dr. Sebby, your comment makes perfect sense to me and always made it. Somehow, for my logical positivist's broken heart (thanks for that one, Len), the
<snip>...therefore, atheists should never be expected to have to defend or explain their position. to do so in the face of an infinite number of contradicting beliefs entirely lacking of evidence is not just futile, it is stupid.</snip>
seems to compel me to answer, though.
I do not - of course not, says dissonance theory - believe that it is futile or stupid to try to individually contradict people we believe to be wrong. I do not believe it is futile or stupid to individually communicate with people. Even if there were billions of believers out there (are there?! argh!!), both intellectually but also pragmatically I would try to think about arguments (well, in the state of mind I've been in for the past few weeks, that is) to REACH them, arguments they will listen to.
Your argument makes sense to me, but most of "them" will not agree to that - most likely, they won't agree with me either, but how much more likely is it you change your opinion in the face of contrary but obviously hand-made arguments that refer to specific problems, instead of killer-arguments that don't seem to do you any individual justice at all?
In talking with fellow non-believers, I might use that kind of argument, or even as polemics to arouse a certain response in the people who actually read it. But recently, I had to come up with a different kind of heuristic for devising arguments.
Am I making any sense? Besides, does the original post make any sense?
Apologetic, Björn
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Re: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
« Reply #2 on: 2004-10-21 04:09:52 » |
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Second Reply to Dr. Sebby.
Besides - will I cause a terrible outcry with that? -, science is based on faith, too.
Before you stone me, note that even science does have its axioms, that-which-it-cannot-transcend. We have to make certain epistemological presuppositions in order to give our perceptions any validity at all, and this IS a matter of faith.
What I imply with the starting post of this thread, it is a quantitatively different kind of faith, it goes back to that-which-you-cannot-transcend-TRULY, while religion stops short before reaching this point. But there is no qualitative difference, both are on the same spectrum. We HAVE to realise this.
Still, I believe it to be CONVENIENT and VALID to propose a qualitative difference, since religion and science are SO FAR APART. But this is arbitrary. It is an artificial dichotomy. Where is the cut-off? At 50% inquisitiveness? Or some other figure? Your choice.
Now go ahead - let the man who's free from sin...
Björn
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Othello. Thou dost conspire against thy friend, Iago, If thou but think'st him wrong'd, and mak'st his ear A stranger to thy thoughts.
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rhinoceros
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Re: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
« Reply #3 on: 2004-10-21 05:32:49 » |
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[Dr Sebby] <snip> > ...if the number of possible religions is both infinite and entirely > faith dependant, then it is impossible due to the time constraints of a > lifetime to consider any of them as being true or false...or indeed to > consider them at all. > ...therefore, atheists should never be expected to have to defend or > explain their position. to do so in the face of an infinite number of > contradicting beliefs entirely lacking of evidence is not just futile, > it is stupid. <end snip>
[rhinoceros] It seems to me that for the very same reason it is more practical for atheists to explain their position than try to refute the countless intangible religious positions.
Also, if we see religion as spackling paste (Eliezer's term) which is there to "make whole" a person's (or a whole communities') understanding of the word by filling in the gaps with manageable bullshit, it is up to the atheist to replace that spackling paste with testable stuff. Nobody likes to be left with gaping holes in their view of the world, and science has been replacing this spackling paste for centuries, at least since Galileo.
In another recent thread, the question came up of how rationality is to be promoted. The tragedy of rationality is that it is often costly: The tools of science (such as higher maths and understanding what an experiment in a particle accelerator really means) may need years of education, and popular accounts are less than the real thing. Even so, with education, we are proceeding towards a better common understanding of the world.
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Re: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
« Reply #4 on: 2004-10-21 06:55:22 » |
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[Gorogh] > Before you stone me, note that even science does have its axioms, > that-which-it-cannot-transcend. We have to make certain epistemological > presuppositions in order to give our perceptions any validity at all, and > this IS a matter of faith.
[rhinoceros] In science, axioms come and go. Immediate perception is only affected by our physical and technological limitations and by the categorizations we tend to do; indirect perception can be affected by the current theories and models to a higher degree, but the main epistemological presupposition is none else than consistency in predictions.
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Re: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
« Reply #5 on: 2004-10-24 14:55:50 » |
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I agree, there is a component of faith in all generative philisophical thesis - even science. It's really a matter of what future do you want to create, not a matter of what is “correct”. Being someone who has prospered from studying and implementing tools of science, I am a natural proponent. Others have prospered under different core philosophies.
IMHO, science is the “deepest” faith. It is a faith in the true God, the God that is, by definition, the Universe itself, the God that “speaks” to us, insomuch as our perceptions are able to read “his” influences. If you define God in this way, you can re-read any Biblical text in the light of a scientific worldview.
“God speaks to me” translates to “My brain has interpreted some perceivable event as proviting insight into the nature and workings of the Universe”
I wonder if this is how the Bible got started. Someone sat down and thought about science, realized that the only master entity was the Universe itself and wrote about it.
Then someone came along and converted the “scare qoutes” to all-caps....
And it was all downhill from there... -----Original Message----- From: "Gorogh" <gorogh@pallowrun.de> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:09:52 To:<virus@lucifer.com> Subject: Re: virus: religion versus science - the attempt of a synthesis.
Second Reply to Dr. Sebby.
Besides - will I cause a terrible outcry with that? -, science is based on faith, too.
Before you stone me, note that even science does have its axioms, that-which-it-cannot-transcend. We have to make certain epistemological presuppositions in order to give our perceptions any validity at all, and this IS a matter of faith.
What I imply with the starting post of this thread, it is a quantitatively different kind of faith, it goes back to that-which-you-cannot-transcend-TRULY, while religion stops short before reaching this point. But there is no qualitative difference, both are on the same spectrum. We HAVE to realise this.
Still, I believe it to be CONVENIENT and VALID to propose a qualitative difference, since religion and science are SO FAR APART. But this is arbitrary. It is an artificial dichotomy. Where is the cut-off? At 50% inquisitiveness? Or some other figure? Your choice.
Now go ahead - let the man who's free from sin...
Björn
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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