<snip>"Uruguay has a long history of media repression. We don't have the money to pay for web hosting, and so we rely on the solidarity of other countries. Actions like the seizure of the servers make the whole world insecure for free media," says Libertinus, an Indymedia volunteer from Uruguay, one of many Indymedia web sites that was caught in the FBI actions as a bystander. "Uruguay's national elections will take place on October 31st. It's a bad time for this to happen." </snip>
<snip>Suppress the Vote It has become clear that the Republican Party is attempting to suppress the vote of people in marginalized communities from Florida to Arizona. A Republican legislator in Michigan has said that they need to "suppress the Detroit vote"--the city of Detroit is over 80 percent people of color--while the head of (flawed) voting machine manafacturer Diebold has promised to deliver the swing state of Ohio to the Republicans.
In response, thousands of activists are traveling to swing states to help protect the hard-won right of marginalized communities to vote and human-rights NGO Global Exchange is sponsoring an international team of election observers.
Meanwhile, the Democratic Party is conducting their own state by state campaign to keep third-party candidate Ralph Nader off the ballot. </snip>
Indymedia reports on the anti-globalisation movement The FBI has shut down some 20 sites which were part of an alternative media network known as Indymedia. A US court order forced the firm hosting the material to hand over two servers in the UK used by the group.
Indymedia says it is a news source for the anti-globalisation movement and other social justice issues.
The reasons behind the seizure are unclear but the FBI has reportedly said the action was taken at the request of Italian and Swiss authorities.
Legal action
The servers affected were run by Rackspace, a US web hosting company with offices in London.
It said it had received a court order from the US authorities last Thursday to hand over the computer equipment at its UK hosting facility.
The way this has been done smacks more of intimidation of legitimate journalistic inquiry than crime-busting
Aidan White, International Federation of Journalists "Rackspace is acting as a good corporate citizen and is cooperating with international law enforcement authorities," said a statement by the company.
It said it was responding to an order issued under the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. Under the agreement, countries assist each other in investigations such as international terrorism, kidnapping and money laundering
The reasons behind the action against the Indymedia websites are unclear.
The group said the servers affected had hosted the sites of more then 20 local collectives and audio streams for several radio stations, as well as several other projects.
"Indymedia had been asked last month by the FBI to remove a story about Swiss undercover police from one of the websites hosted at Rackspace," said the group in a statement.
"It is not known, however, whether Thursday's order is related to that incident since the order was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia."
'Intolerable and intrusive'
A FBI spokesperson told the AFP news agency that it was not an FBI operation, saying the order had been issued at the request of Italian and Swiss authorities.
The seizure has sparked off protests from journalist groups.
"We have witnessed an intolerable and intrusive international police operation against a network specialising in independent journalism," said Aidan White, general secretary of the International Federation of Journalists.
"The way this has been done smacks more of intimidation of legitimate journalistic inquiry than crime-busting."
The UK site of Indymedia is back up and running but several of the other 20 sites affected are still offline.
In the US, the civil liberties group, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) said it was working with Indymedia over how to react to the seizures.
"The constitution does not permit the government unilaterally to cut off the speech of an independent media outlet, especially without providing a reason or even allowing Indymedia the information necessary to contest the seizure," said EFF Staff Attorney Kurt Opsahl.
Offices that house President Bush's re-election campaign in Spokane were broken into and vandalized last night, the latest in a string of crimes at Republican offices across the country.
Workers arriving this morning found a hole smashed through the wall from an adjacent, vacant office. Bush campaign officials say a small amount of petty cash is missing and a computer and television had been moved and left near the hole.
"They must have gotten spooked because they ultimately left the computer and TV," said Bill Hyslop, the campaign's chairman for the Fifth Congressional District.
The computer and the TV had recently arrived in Spokane and the computer was loaded with information from the Republican get-out-the vote program.
Spokane police responded this morning and took the computer's monitor and the TV, Hyslop said.
"We obviously have no idea who did this and are not going to cast aspersions," said Hyslop, who served as U.S. attorney in Spokane under President George H.W. Bush.
In Bellevue last week, computers that stored the Republican get-out-the-vote database were stolen in a burglary at the Republican headquarters there. Bush campaign officials believe the break-ins are part of a broader attack on the president's re-election offices around the country, including a burglary in Canton, Ohio, last night, gun shots fired in West Virginia, Florida and Tennessee and union protestors storming offices in three Florida cities and Minneapolis.
There are no suspects in the burglaries or shootings and no injuries were reported.
Because the protests at campaign offices that were stormed were part of organized union demonstrations, Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot wrote a letter today to AFL-CIO President John Sweeney asking him to call off any future protests.
"In addition to the injuries, property damage and disruption associated with these acts, these events have created a threatening and intimidating atmosphere abhorrent to our democratic process," Racicot wrote.
The Spokane building leased by the state Republican party and serves as the area office for party operations as well as the campaign for the President and other Republican candidates.
Hyslop said that a security guard checked the building at about 6 a.m. today and did not report any disturbance.
But when construction crews working on the adjacent office arrived within 30 minutes later, they noticed the back door of the adjacent office had been pried open from an alleyway.
They also discovered that a hole appeared to have been kicked through the drywall separating the vacant space from the Bush offices. The computer and TV were found near the hole.
We may be about to experience an election unlike any we've seen in a while. The Florida recount in 2000 raised passions and blood pressure and featured some demonstrations on both sides, but there was no violence. This year, lots of groups are jostling with each other to monitor the elections in battleground states. For its part, the AFL-CIO has promised to dispatch thousands of election monitors to battleground states to watch for any hint of trouble at polling places. From the initial reports, they may be the ones for have to be watched as potential troublemakers.
Last week, in Orlando, Fla., approximately 60 union protestors stormed and ransacked the local Bush-Cheney headquarters causing considerable damage and injuring one campaign staffer, who suffered a broken wrist.
According to an Orlando Police Department report, Rhyan Metzler, a field director for the Republican Party, was at the headquarters about 1 p.m. last Tuesday when 60 protestors barged in. Van Church, a 53-year old protestor, forced the door open and caused Mr. Metzler's arm to be caught in it. His left wrist was fractured in the altercation. Police say Mr. Church will be charged with two counts of battery.
But Mr. Church is unrepentant. "If his wrist was fractured, it's a result of his own actions in jerking the door the way he did," he told the Orlando Sentinel. "He jerked the door out of my hand and cut it in the process." But since it is Mr. Church who is being charged, the police apparently didn't think Mr. Metzler did anything wrong.
Orlando's fracas was mirrored in Miami, where police reported that more than 100 union protestors stormed the Bush-Cheney office and shoved volunteers aside. No one was charged because most of the protestors left before the police arrived. In Tampa, about 35 protestors filled the local GOP office and intimidated the elderly volunteers working there.
The AFL-CIO took credit on its Web site for similar demonstrations--apparently all coordinated--in Independence, Mo., Kansas City, Mo., Dearborn, Mich., St. Paul, Minn., and West Allis, Wis. In what could be a related incident, the Bush-Cheney office in Knoxville, Tenn., had its plate-glass windows shattered by gunfire on Tuesday morning before volunteers showed up for work. Another Republican office, in Seattle, was broken into and had computer files stolen.
Esmerelda Aguilar, an AFL-CIO spokesman, says Republicans are "trying to politicize [the Orlando incident] and exaggerate the event." She maintains that all of the demonstrations "were peaceful protests" designed to call attention to new Bush administration regulations on overtime pay.
Rep. Tom Feeney (R., Fla.) is skeptical. He was speaker of the Florida House in 2000 and knows how important it is to address election-related problems early and not wait for Election Day. Mr. Feeney and 49 other GOP members of Congress have signed a letter asking the Justice Department to investigate if the coordinated protests violated any federal laws on protecting the rights to campaign and vote.
Rep. Feeney also says the Justice Department needs to let people know it is watching this election more closely than most. "We ask that you work with state law enforcement agencies in investigating a series of voting irregularities including forgeries in voter registration forms, casting simultaneous ballots in different states (double voting), and absentee voter fraud. Such activities disenfranchise those who properly register to vote and cast valid ballots."
Look for the Justice Department to become a major political football in this election. Already, its warnings that terrorists may well try to disrupt the Nov. 2 election is being greeted skeptically by some local election officials. New Mexico Secretary of State Rebecca Vigil-Giron, a Democrat, is openly asking if Attorney General John Ashcroft's warnings are part of a GOP effort to suppress voter turnout. Last week, Democrats responded by creating their own SWAT teams of lawyers that will be dispatched to any place where voting problems are recorded. One issue certain to be disputed will be provisional ballots, which are cast when someone doesn't find his name on the registration rolls. Such ballots are set aside and verified later. A flood of provisional ballot lists could tilt the election in close states one way or the other with Democrats demanding that officials "count every vote" and Republicans questioning the validity of some of the ballots.
California Assemblywoman Bonnie Garcia, a Republican, says she has found 3,000 new duplicate registrations in her district. "The current process today is really Third World conditions," she told CNN's Lou Dobbs program. When asked what she thinks about Democratic charges that her calls for investigations into the duplicate registrations will scare voters away from the polls, she refuses to back down. "You're damn right, I'm going to try to scare away the crooks."
Let's hope the lawyers don't take over this election's aftermath the way they did in Florida in 2000. To prevent that the Justice Department needs to step in now and enforce everyone's civil rights. That means protecting campaign workers from intimidation as well as preventing fraudulent votes from canceling out legitimate ballots. Allowing double voting, ballots to be cast from the graveyard and those who have been disqualified because of criminal convictions to dilute the process only calls into question the sanctity of the election itself. It's no way to run a modern democracy.
Blogger Robert Musil suggests that a climate of fear has descended upon Republicans in at least some parts of the country. Based in Los Angeles, Musil says most Republicans he's spoken with are afraid to put Bush-Cheney bumper stickers on their cars, or signs on their lawns, for fear of physical retaliation from angry liberals. The problem is not symmetrical, says Musil. Stickers and signs for Kerry are widespread in Republican neighborhoods. Yet even in their own communities, Republicans are holding back. Intrigued by Musil's claim, I put up a post on NRO's blog, The Corner, asking for reader comment. I was quickly flooded with nearly 300 e-mails, almost all of them backing Musil. Here is the story they told.
There is a climate of fear. Again and again, Corner readers say they've been scared off of posting bumper stickers by visions of having their cars keyed or their windows smashed. A typical comment: "Putting a Bush-Cheney sticker on my car would be like adding a bulls-eye that says, 'Please vandalize my truck.'" A reader from Arlington, Va., who lives just a few blocks from national Bush-Cheney headquarters, says he was not afraid to use bumper stickers in 1996 or 2000, but wouldn't do so this year. Bush lawn signs are feared, not only as an invitation to vandalism, but because they might permanently alienate neighbors. A man whose wife was handicapped and dependent on neighbors in case of emergency was wary of starting a neighborhood "war" with a sign. This was a common worry among Bush supporters, even in less dire circumstances. (For more on the Bush-Cheney sign fears, go here, here, and here.)
Are the fears justified? They seem to be. On Tuesday there was a report that several shots had been fired into Bush-Cheney headquarters in Knoxville, Tenn., shattering glass. And late Tuesday evening came a report that protesters had ransacked a Bush-Cheney headquarters in Orlando, Florida. But these are only the most dramatic examples of a broader trend. Plenty of folks told me that their cars had been keyed, dented, or had windows smashed in for carrying a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker. Nasty notes left on the windshield are common. And some drivers get cut off in traffic and flipped off by cars sporting Kerry bumper stickers. One fellow said a couple of young guys pulled up next to his 64-year-old mother's car and signaled her to roll the window down. When she did, they screamed, "Bush is a F**king MORON!"
Apparently, Bush-Cheney cars are routinely keyed in places like liberal Seattle. And liberal Bethesda, Md., has reportedly seen a rash of spray-paintings of Bush yard signs (with Kerry signs left in tact). One pro-Bush family in liberal West L.A. had its yard sign stolen six times. Theft, spray paint, or just tearing to shreds are the weapons of choice against yard signs, but one Bush-Cheney sign was actually set on fire. Even in conservative Idaho, Bush-Cheney cars get keyed. And in conservative Houston, parking while visiting a friend in the liberal midtown section can mean a keyed car. Apparently, these attacks are so common that you can now buy a T-Shirt with a picture of a slashed-out Bush-Cheney logo and the legend, "A person of tolerance and diversity keyed my car."
The fear of violence leads many couples into serious debate. A stolen Bush-Cheney yard sign in liberal Cherry Hill, N.J., prompted one couple to think long and hard before replacing it. Would a rock through the window be next? "You can't hide where you live once you make a mark of yourself," said the husband. (But they did replace the sign.) One woman hints that although her husband called her "paranoid" for deciding against a bumper sticker, he may secretly be relieved at her choice.
Several readers noted that Kerry bumper stickers seem to show up mostly on Mercedes, BMWs, and other "high-end Euro-steel," while Bush-Cheney cars are more modest American models. But at least part of the reason for this could be that Bush supporters are afraid to put stickers on new or expensive cars. Some families with two cars restrict the Bush-Cheney sticker to the beat-up old family van, keeping it off the better car.
Bush-sign protection is an art. Lots of folks report putting signs inside home and car windows, facing out. Magnetized car signs can be removed for safety when parking, and Bush yard signs can be stored in the garage at night. One fellow makes sure to park with his bumper facing a wall. Some Bush supporters have responded to thefts by covering signs in chicken wire or putting them behind fences. But these tactics don't always work.
The most effective strategy seems to be hanging the signs high on trees, or high on a house. But this can be countered by malicious graffiti on the door, which one family has to clean off daily. The best tactic may have been this note, taped to the back of a yard sign: "Thanks! Your theft of this sign will result in a replacement sign and an additional donation of $10 to the RNC. Your contribution is appreciated."
So are those too afraid to use stickers and signs just a bunch of political girly-men? A couple of tough guys said as much to their more timid compatriots: "What kind of wussy are you? I say Bring It On!" But most of the people who wrote in argued that it isn't cowardice to worry about damage to a car that can't be protected when parked. Several people said they'd started sporting Bush T-shirts and caps instead of bumper stickers, because Kerry supporters won't try anything to their face. Readers who do decide to use stickers or signs despite the risks feel courageous. Some folks feel a sense of relief each and every time they return to an undamaged car.
Many Bush supporters avoid the whole problem by adopting a flag strategy. American flags, yellow ribbons, and signs saying "Support our troops" function in many places as proxies for Bush-Cheney signs. One reader noted that none of the homes with Kerry signs on his street display American flags. Other readers say they intentionally use the flag as a proxy. Usually this is safe. But apparently in Seattle, even an American flag can provoke arguments and rude looks. One Seattle neighborhood seems to display U.N. flags and stickers more often than Old Glory. (I guess that meets the "global test.")
Is the violence really unequal? Corner readers sure think so, but it's tough to know for certain when your sample consists of Bush partisans. Still, Corner readers point to repeatedly defaced Bush-Cheney signs in areas where Kerry signs go untouched. Clearly, there is at least some violence against Kerry signs. One reader said that in Columbus, Ohio, the virtual epicenter of this year's campaign, sign violence seems to be about equal. The most frightened Corner readers by far are those who live in or pass through university towns. Yet one reader from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee reports that at least some liberal professors there feel sheepish about displaying their support for Kerry. Still, the repeated message of Corner readers is that property damage is inflicted on Bush supporters at far higher levels than on Kerry supporters. The asymmetry is attributed partly to the general willingness of those on the left to protest, but mostly to the depths of liberal Bush hatred.
Several readers complained about local news stories that hyped minor attacks on Kerry signs while ignoring the more pervasive violence against Bush supporters. Then there's the question of which side's attacks are meaner. The only direct assault on a Kerry supporter described to me was a fellow who's Kedwards sign earned him a couple of frozen waffles on his front porch. Now, I wouldn't hurl waffles myself, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think the waffle stunt was a great prank. Even when the Bushies strike, they seem to do it more in humor than in anger.
Pervasive liberal vitriol against the president has convinced some Bush supporters that they are in danger. Anti-Bush signs and graffiti seem to be at least as common as pro-Kerry signs. The slogans range from "Bushit," to "Bush is a Stupid A** Moron," to bumper stickers that substitute Bush/Hitler or Bush/Satan for Bush/Cheney.
This brings us to what I call "the mechanism of intimidation." It seems that either past violence or present incivility has the power to intimidate. Several Washington state readers pointed to memories of the violence at the Seattle World Trade Organization protests some years ago as a reason why they would not display a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker. A couple of California readers pointed to violence against conservatives on the Berkeley campus as a reason to hold back.
But overwhelmingly, those who were reluctant to put up Bush-Cheney stickers or signs said that the "rabid" nature of this year's Bush-hatred had convinced them that showing their support for the president was no longer safe. Apparently, in addition to all the keyed cars and bumper stickers, many city stop signs have been painted to read "Stop Bush." More than one reader said that people who deface city property can't be trusted to refrain from violence against private cars. One correspondent had an eloquent take on the mechanism of intimidation:
...a number of neighborhood Kerry supporters have taken to putting hand written signs on their lawns. They do not threaten violence but manage to cross that invisible line of good taste and neighborliness.... That is, they insult the president personally and by association those who support him.
In the past, an unwritten rule seemed to apply to yard signs. Any neighbor was free to express his support for the candidate of his choice in a tasteful yard sign without having it affect personal friendships. But tactics seeming to violate the unwritten rule are now widely practiced: using insulting handmade signs, planting multiple signs at a single household and placing signs on property lines to make it appear as if neighbors also support Kerry-Edwards. In my mind's eye, this behavior suggests that the Kerry-Edwards supporters are so invested emotionally in the contest that they are willing — no eager — to alienate their neighbors.
This is what has created the climate of fear.
Why do Kerry supporters feel free to vandalize Bush signs and damage the property of the president's supporters? Corner readers agree that it's the liberal feeling of moral superiority that "puts them above the law and gives them leave to abridge the rights of others." Another typical comment was: "There's nothing more intolerant than a tolerant liberal." One reader called for an amendment to Voltaire's classic statement of liberal tolerance: "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll sneak onto your yard in the middle of the night to steal your sign, you fascist bastard."
With all the problems, the tide may be turning. A number of readers report that Bush signs are now proliferating. According to one, they "sprouted like dandelions" after the Republican convention. That may mean even more vandalism and violence as we head toward election day. But this is unlikely to help Kerry.
First, there's the cocoon effect. A number of readers said that the mainstream-media message that it's politically incorrect to favor the president means polls may actually undercount Bush support. Liberals are shocked when the president garners majority support, because they don't know anyone who agrees with him. Yet the truth is that liberal vitriol has simply made the many Bush supporters in their midst go underground.
Anti-Bush violence is a weak and ultimately counterproductive tactic. It is the opposite of Tocqueville's famous "tyranny of the majority." The tyranny of the majority works chiefly through mental intimidation. It frightens and silences by its pervasiveness, and its implicit threat of ostracism. As Tocqueville said, the tyranny of the majority leaves the body and goes for the soul. There is a touch of this in the reluctance of Bush supporters to alienate the neighbors upon whom they depend. But for the most part, the anti-Bush violence leaves the soul and goes for the body (even if it's the body of a car). That is not the tyranny of the majority. It is the rage of a minority, and it can only stir resentment and provoke a reaction at the voting booth. As one Corner reader said: "We may fear retaliation for putting stickers on our cars, but our voice will be heard loud and clear on November 2."
Bush-Cheney headquarters in Orlando attacked by a union mob
Anti-Bush protestor attacks GOP committee chairman in Gainesville
In Miami, more than 100 union protesters stormed the Bush-Cheney campaign office and pushed volunteers inside
In Tampa, about three dozen protesters crowded into the second-floor office of the local Bush-Cheney headquarters where three elderly volunteers, two interns and a campaign staffer were working at the time
Shots fired into a GOP headquarters in Knoxville
In Madison, a Nazi swastika was burned into a home's lawn near where Bush-Cheney signs were posted
Duluth teens vandalize Bush yard signs
50 demonstrators supporting Democrat presidential candidate John Kerry stormed a Republican campaign office in West Allis
If this sort of thing were happening to Democrats, both the Michael Moore-types and the mainstream media would be screaming about Republican stormtroopers directed by Reichsführer-SS John Ashcroft. Since it's happening to Republicans, however, it is mostly covered just by local media. In any event, it cerainly gives one pause about putting up a Bush yard sign or putting on a Bush bumpersticker.
Update: Kerry spot has details on a number of these and other examples. He argues:
There's been an exponential number of reports of signs not just stolen, but burned, defaced with swastikas, and torn down by pistol-packing angry teenagers. (An anti-Bush gun-control supporter, perhaps?)
His solution is, shall we say, a bit less risk averse than my initial reaction:
If somebody stole your sign, they're trying to send you a message — that your voice shouldn't be heard, that their willingness to stroll onto your property break the law can trumps your First Amendment rights. Are you going to let those snot-nosed punks win?...
And a bunch of little twerps think they can help their guy win by stealing stuff and painting swastikas. On the property of a veteran. Guy spends years defending his country so some kid who can barely spell "Nazi," much less define "national socialism," can march onto his property and spray paint the symbol of those fascists?
Damn straight. Now where did I put that yard sign?
Yesterday we read about some disturbing cases of political violence related to the election. Now we turn our attention to a less directly threatening, but still disturbing trend in American politics.
Every election cycle, there are always reports of campaign workers stealing or defacing signs. Usually it's an overzealous campaign volunteer, or a drunk, or some activist with more anger than brains or knowledge of trespassing laws and respect for others' property. Or all simultaneously.
But something seriously disturbing is going on this year. There's been an exponential number of reports of signs not just stolen, but burned, defaced with swastikas, and torn down by pistol-packing angry teenagers. (An anti-Bush gun-control supporter, perhaps?)
Howard County, Maryland:
The political season has turned ugly in Howard County, with an Ellicott City homeowner reporting a late-night fire that burned two Republican campaign signs in his back yard. In addition, local Republicans say scores of other campaign signs have been destroyed or vandalized in the past couple of weeks, most of them along major highways.
"It's absolutely outrageous," said Howard Rensin, chairman of the county Republican party. He said about $1,500 worth of GOP signs have been destroyed.
"We're talking about dozens and dozens and dozens of signs. We think we may be looking at a concerted effort here," Rensin said. "If people want to express their political views, they ought to do so at the polls." ...
Over the weekend, county police conducted a surveillance operation prompted by the spate of sign destruction. On Sept. 25, police spotted a man on Route 40 cutting down with a power tool a sign urging voters to re-elect President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney.
Police arrested Corey Robert Cooke, 33, of Ellicott City and charged him with destruction of property.
Pfc. Dave Proulx, a county police spokesman, said Cooke has not been charged in any of the other incidents.
The most dramatic incident so far involved the burning of the 4-foot-by-8-foot Bush-Cheney sign and a smaller sign endorsing U.S. Senate candidate E. J. Pipkin in Ellicott City.
James McQuarrie said he awoke shortly after 1 A.M. Sept. 25 and saw a fire burning in the yard of his home in the 10100 block of Old Frederick Road.
"I saw a big flame outside my window," McQuarrie said. He rushed to fight the fire with a hose, then county firefighters arrived to help. The fire also burned part of his yard fence and a nearby pile of wood, McQuarrie said.
Another case in the same neck of the woods:
Howard County's spate of political sign destruction led to the arrest late Friday of a Randallstown couple accused of using a bayonet to cut the centers out of two Bush/Cheney campaign signs on U.S. 40 near Ridge Road in Ellicott City, according to court files and county police. Peter Lizon, 30, and his wife, Stephanie Louise Lizon, 34, of the first block of Valdivia Court, were each charged with destruction of private property. Peter Lizon faces weapons charges. He is free on $3,500 bail and Stephanie Lizon on $3,000 bail.
Duluth, Minnesota:
"We did it." Three Duluth teenagers walked into the Duluth News Tribune on Wednesday afternoon, opening with these three words. The boys said they were responsible for vandalizing Bush campaign signs and painting a swastika and the word "Nazi" at a London Road residence last weekend.
An hour later, the three boys traveled to the Lakeside-Lester Park police station, where Sgt. Scott Campbell was waiting to talk to them.
The teenagers told the News Tribune they meant no harm to Bob James, the homeowner and Bush-Cheney supporter who erected the signs. They said they spray painted the signs and the swastika on James' sidewalk but had nothing to do with the vandalism of two of James' vehicles.
Friends and supporters of James and the Republican Party of Minnesota had offered a $2,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of those responsible for the vandalism.
While the teenagers were remorseful for what they did to James, they stood by their contempt for President Bush. They said they left a phone message for James on Wednesday and twice went to his house to apologize, but he wasn't home. They planned to try again later Wednesday.
"It was not an act of hate," said Dustin "Dusty" Dzuck, 17, a senior at Denfeld High School. "My mom called me a terrorist. It wasn't terrorism; it was activism. It was for a cause.... The whole thing is, basically, I just wanted to get the word out there that in my opinion Bush isn't doing this country any good."
Dzuck said his actions bothered him more when he learned James is an Army veteran.
Nashville, Tennessee:
Police said a Nashville teenager and his friends stole 71 Bush-Cheney yard signs because he was mad at President Bush for sending his brother to Iraq. Andrew Thurman, 18, told police that he and 19-year-old Frederick Stevenson stole the signs from several west Nashville neighborhoods because his brother, a U.S. marine, was sent to Iraq.
"It's not unusual to see the isolated theft of campaign signs in local, state and federal elections," Nashville police spokesman Don Aaron said. "However, this is the first time I can recall that someone who admits responsibility for the theft has linked it to the war in Iraq."
Thurman, Stevenson and two other teens were riding in a Honda Accord when they were stopped by police. Officers searched the car and found the signs, along with three pistols.
Thurman and Stevenson were cited for misdemeanor charges of theft and unlawful weapon possession. The other teens, who were both minors, face only the weapon charge.
Officials say this presidential campaign has triggered more reports of stolen campaign signs than in previous elections.
Rapid City, South Dakota:
The battle over political yard signs continued in Rapid City on Friday night, and the Republicans seemed to get the worst of it. Signs supporting Republican candidates John Thune and Larry Diedrich were spray painted, stolen or destroyed up and down West Boulevard, as well as on several streets nearby. West Boulevard resident Ellen Drabek said Saturday that she lost two signs from her yard during the night.
"Mine weren't painted. Mine were stolen. And there were two large Thune signs up at St. Patrick Street that were broken up. All the rest of them were spray painted," Drabek said. "None of the Democratic signs were touched."
The vandalism and thefts occurred about two weeks after three Rapid City teenagers were caught after they were spotted in the act of stealing a large yard sign for Democrat Stephanie Herseth from a West Boulevard yard. Signs for Democrat Tom Daschle also had been taken.
There are also sporadic reports of Kerry signs being stolen or defaced. If you are a Bush supporter, and you tear down Kerry signs, you are among the lamest human beings on the planet.
But so far, the majority of these cases — and the ones involving the most disturbing details of bayonets, guns, fires, and swastikas — are targeting Bush-Cheney signs.
There is, of course, a way to fight this.
And, coincidentally, it just happens to involve the primary sponsor of the Kerry Spot.
Are those of us — left, right and center — going to let a bunch of bullies push us around? In our homes, front lawns, and neighborhoods?
I quote the football coach in the movie, Rudy: "No one, and I mean no one, comes into our house and pushes us around."
Or, if you prefer the University of Maryland, WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!
In this case, "this house" means our right to publicly support the candidate of our choice. If somebody stole your sign, they're trying to send you a message — that your voice shouldn't be heard, that their willingness to stroll onto your property break the law can trumps your First Amendment rights. Are you going to let those snot-nosed punks win?
If you have to only put your sign out while you're home, so be it. If you have to take it inside overnight, so be it. Better to make that little extra effort than to concede that their enthusiasm for vandalism can shut you up.
Flag W needs some advance time to get stuff sent to you. They got a slew of stuff to my Bush-supporting friends awfully fast, but we know they're going to get a rush of orders in the closing month of the election. And a sign for your candidate only does good before Election Day, obviously (unless it's for moral support during the recount, I suppose).
I know there are a bunch of you out there who don't usually put signs up. It's gauche. Wearing your heart on your sleeve. Kinda cheesy.
But this isn't a normal year. These aren't normal times. And a bunch of little twerps think they can help their guy win by stealing stuff and painting swastikas. On the property of a veteran. Guy spends years defending his country so some kid who can barely spell "Nazi," much less define "national socialism," can march onto his property and spray paint the symbol of those fascists?
Hands balling into fists yet? Jaw clenched? Getting in that Ben Grimm "It's clobberin' time" mood?
Go here, or click on the ad at the top of the page. Bring the credit card or the checkbook. Buy as much stuff as you like.
And let's show the world what happens when these little sign-defacing reprobates mess with the wrong folks.
The majors (and here, and here) are starting to get into the surge in political vandalism, theft, intimidation, and petty political terrorism rumbling under the surface right now. For every incident you hear about, there's a couple hundred stolen, shot, defaced, or burnt Bush/Cheney signs not getting reported. I know my local paper, the CDT hasn't said boo about what's going on in *this* county as of this morning.
I've come across a few reports of destruction of Kerry signs. For that, read "that story, and a few 'both sides are doing it'" fake-neutral public-virtue bullshit stories.
But I haven't heard any stories of Republican mobs rioting in Democratic campaign offices yet, or of any shootings involving Democratic facilities, or Watergate-style break-ins at Democratic campaign offices.
One of the teenagers who burned swastikas into the yard of a Bush/Cheney supporter in Wisconsin complained that what he did wasn't "It wasn't terrorism; it was activism. It was for a cause.... The whole thing is, basically, I just wanted to get the word out there that in my opinion Bush isn't doing this country any good." When was terrorism ever inspired solely by malice, without any political intent? Child, terrorism is inherently political. Inherently "activist". Inherently "for a cause". You aren't any less a brownshirt because you've tie-dyed the brownshirt, any less a thug because you're wearing birkenstocks instead of jackboots, any less a fascist because you're wearing a Grateful Dead hat instead of a Stormfront t-shirt.
This is the turning-point; you fools have dipped one toe into dark and rushing waters. Think again. Real goddamn hard.
Au contraire, dear Fish, I'm simply providing the counterfactual evidence that, as far as the US is concerned, most of the intimidation is issuing from, rather than being directed to, the Kerry camp. And as far as flooding the mailing list, my emails are not sent, since certain biased and dogmatic partisan extremists here are so fearful of having their delusional balloons punctured by ther facts and evidence contained within my posts that they will not rate me high enough for them to be sent (which is why, knowing this full well, Blunderov posted his contribution on the email list rather than on the BBS - so it could not be refuted in kind by me). But at least they are available to those who check the site.
RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #9 on: 2004-10-13 20:31:40 »
Dear Mermaid, I understand your intentions to be well meaning, but in the future you might want to exercise greater care when entering a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
That Joe is still allowed to post at all in this forum is an example of the lengths to which this list will go in order to be tolerate of all views, rational or not.
TTFN, I must go now to assist the masons and the trilateral commission in the construction of the new world order over at the knights templar headquarters...and unfortunately I'm running late, again.
JerryLee is apparently confused and mistaken; he must somehow think that Mermaid was arguing with him, not me, for he is the person who just manifestly demonstrated disarmed, rather than disarming, wit. For instance, he apparently considers it to be an act of magnanimous and beneficient tolerance that I am allowed to post here at all; however, I consider the fact that my emails are, alone of all the members, not publicly sent to the list members at large to be the most shameful badge of intolerance and ideological bigotry I have ever seen on a list. But it gets even worse than that. These same enlightened angels of beneficient tolerance and love of progressive diversity also attempted to prevent me from even posting to the BBS; if I could post neither to the email list nor to the BBS, I would be effectively and totally disenfranchised - there would be no practical, pragmatic distinction between such a status and that of a nonmember. They seem to have contracted not only a memetic disease, but one that seems fundamentalist and totalitarian in nature; one that views any dissent from the dogmatic party line as anathema to be inoculated against and attacked via personal insult, shunning, silencing and, finally, a shamefully co-ordinated ratification of list dhimmitude. At least Hermit, as execrable as he was in his comments concerning my mother and as much as he waged warfare against me for calling him to account for his wildly inaccurate predictions concerning Afghanistan, (where, contrary to his crystal ball and candle stylings, the US military didn't die en masse, the Afghani people didn't die in masse of cold or starvation, the Taliban was deposed in an amazingly short time, there was a subsequent mass return of refugees rather than mass exodus, and a democratic election was just held in which 90% of the eligible people signed up and voted - including 44% of the vote being cast by women), he at least had the stones to EXPLICITLY endeavor to expel this dissenter and morph this list into a clone of Smirkingchimp.com or moveon.org and a cyberarm of George Soros, Michael Moore and the Democratic campaign. It seems that the chickendoves who are still yet attempting to fulfill his foul legacy of changing this list from one that studies many memetic infections in general to one that embodies one memetic infestation in particular are only willing to move in these directions implicitly, rather than to with honesty, clarity and integrity own up to them in word as well as in deed.
RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #11 on: 2004-10-14 13:01:57 »
[Joe Dees] JerryLee is apparently confused and mistaken; he must somehow think that Mermaid was arguing with him, not me, for he is the person who just manifestly demonstrated disarmed, rather than disarming, wit. For instance, he apparently considers it to be an act of magnanimous and beneficient tolerance that I am allowed to post here at all; however, I consider the fact that my emails are, alone of all the members, not publicly sent to the list members at large to be the most shameful badge of intolerance and ideological bigotry I have ever seen on a list.
[Casey] So, why do you continue to post to this list if this is such an intorable and ideologically bigoted list?
[Joe Dees] But it gets even worse than that. These same enlightened angels of beneficient tolerance and love of progressive diversity also attempted to prevent me from even posting to the BBS; if I could post neither to the email list nor to the BBS, I would be effectively and totally disenfranchised - there would be no practical, pragmatic distinction between such a status and that of a nonmember.
[Casey] If you're reputation rises, then this is a non-issue. But, your reputation, per Meridion, is at a low level because your posts are, more often that not, cut and pasted articles, with nary a word of your own contributed to the discussion.
[Joe Dees] They seem to have contracted not only a memetic disease, but one that seems fundamentalist and totalitarian in nature; one that views any dissent from the dogmatic party line as anathema to be inoculated against and attacked via personal insult, shunning, silencing and, finally, a shamefully co-ordinated ratification of list dhimmitude.
[Casey] Take a look in the mirror, Joe. You've become a neo-conservative memebot; having gone off the deep end with your neo-conservative-laced cut and pasted articles.
[Joe Dees] At least Hermit, as execrable as he was in his comments concerning my mother and as much as he waged warfare against me for calling him to account for his wildly inaccurate predictions concerning Afghanistan, (where, contrary to his crystal ball and candle stylings, the US military didn't die en masse, the Afghani people didn't die in masse of cold or starvation, the Taliban was deposed in an amazingly short time, there was a subsequent mass return of refugees rather than mass exodus, and a democratic election was just held in which 90% of the eligible people signed up and voted - including 44% of the vote being cast by women), he at least had the stones to EXPLICITLY endeavor to expel this dissenter and morph this list into a clone of Smirkingchimp.com or moveon.org and a cyberarm of George Soros, Michael Moore and the Democratic campaign.
[Casey] You raised the issue of personal insult, yet you tossed one out here referring to Hermit as "execrable". It's a two-way street. Your words have already come back to haunt you here.
In regards to Afghanistan - the US went there with the explicit goal to root out Osama bin Laden. That goal has NOT been met. The US cannot consider it a success until Osama has been apprehended. Going into Afghanistan with the troops levels the US used was simply a mistake on the war planners parts. If we had used our troops, instead of Northern Alliance troops that were often times enemies of one another, then we might have apprehended/killed Osama. But, the US didn't. Chalk that mistake on the Bush administration.
[Joe Dees] It seems that the chickendoves who are still yet attempting to fulfill his foul legacy of changing this list from one that studies many memetic infections in general to one that embodies one memetic infestation in particular are only willing to move in these directions implicitly, rather than to with honesty, clarity and integrity own up to them in word as well as in deed.
[Casey] I think I speak with clarity when I say that studying your neo-conservative memetic infection is trite. We've seen you display it time and time again and it's appalling what a memetic infection like your own can do to a once-rational and intelligent individual.
[Joe Dees] JerryLee is apparently confused and mistaken; he must somehow think that Mermaid was arguing with him, not me, for he is the person who just manifestly demonstrated disarmed, rather than disarming, wit. For instance, he apparently considers it to be an act of magnanimous and beneficient tolerance that I am allowed to post here at all; however, I consider the fact that my emails are, alone of all the members, not publicly sent to the list members at large to be the most shameful badge of intolerance and ideological bigotry I have ever seen on a list.
[Casey] So, why do you continue to post to this list if this is such an intorable and ideologically bigoted list?
[Joe Dees 2] Because I still have hope that reason may triumph over prejudice with these people, and because, unlike them, I see no benefit to engaging in a like-minded mutually masturabtory circle jerk exercise in to-the-choir-preaching.
[Joe Dees] But it gets even worse than that. These same enlightened angels of beneficient tolerance and love of progressive diversity also attempted to prevent me from even posting to the BBS; if I could post neither to the email list nor to the BBS, I would be effectively and totally disenfranchised - there would be no practical, pragmatic distinction between such a status and that of a nonmember.
[Casey] If you're reputation rises, then this is a non-issue. But, your reputation, per Meridion, is at a low level because your posts are, more often that not, cut and pasted articles, with nary a word of your own contributed to the discussion.
[Joe Dees 2] I replied to a Blunderov-posted cut-and-parte article here with others demonstrating that the shoe was on a different foot than the one being advertized; as soon as I was addressed directly, I responded in kind, and continue to do so. My reputation will not rise, even when I am proven right about Afghanistan, Iraq, Fahrenheit 9/11, the Rathergate scandal, etc., because being correct is not valued on this list so much as being politically acquiescent to the fallacious majority opinion.
[Joe Dees] They seem to have contracted not only a memetic disease, but one that seems fundamentalist and totalitarian in nature; one that views any dissent from the dogmatic party line as anathema to be inoculated against and attacked via personal insult, shunning, silencing and, finally, a shamefully co-ordinated ratification of list dhimmitude.
[Casey] Take a look in the mirror, Joe. You've become a neo-conservative memebot; having gone off the deep end with your neo-conservative-laced cut and pasted articles.
[Joe Dees 2] I am a social libera, a fiscal conservative, and a foreign policy realist. If Clinton were still president and were taking Bush's actions to liberate oppressed millions, depose totalitarian and islamofascist dictators, quash fundamentalist terrorists and spread freedom and democracy, most denizens of this list would be applauding as wildly as they did when Clinton (for whom I voted twice - and I voted for Gore, too, but I am post 9/11 glad that I was on the losing side of that one) did something similar in Bosnia.
[Joe Dees] At least Hermit, as execrable as he was in his comments concerning my mother and as much as he waged warfare against me for calling him to account for his wildly inaccurate predictions concerning Afghanistan, (where, contrary to his crystal ball and candle stylings, the US military didn't die en masse, the Afghani people didn't die in masse of cold or starvation, the Taliban was deposed in an amazingly short time, there was a subsequent mass return of refugees rather than mass exodus, and a democratic election was just held in which 90% of the eligible people signed up and voted - including 44% of the vote being cast by women), he at least had the stones to EXPLICITLY endeavor to expel this dissenter and morph this list into a clone of Smirkingchimp.com or moveon.org and a cyberarm of George Soros, Michael Moore and the Democratic campaign.
[Casey] You raised the issue of personal insult, yet you tossed one out here referring to Hermit as "execrable". It's a two-way street. Your words have already come back to haunt you here.
[Joe Dees 2] It was a simple and accurate description. it may not be polite to call a man what he is and has proven himself to be, but the truth, by definition, can never be an insult. If you doubt this evaluation, go back and read his 'Joe's Mommy ' 'oozing screen' post (among many others), or simply try remebering them. You were here.
In regards to Afghanistan - the US went there with the explicit goal to root out Osama bin Laden. That goal has NOT been met. The US cannot consider it a success until Osama has been apprehended. Going into Afghanistan with the troops levels the US used was simply a mistake on the war planners parts. If we had used our troops, instead of Northern Alliance troops that were often times enemies of one another, then we might have apprehended/killed Osama. But, the US didn't. Chalk that mistake on the Bush administration.
[Joe Dees 2] If we had done that, we would have caused the warlords to unite against us, rather than gradually swaying them to acquiesce to submit to democracy. As it is, 75% of Al Qaeda's leadership has been captured and killed, including #3 Mohammed Atef, Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, who oversaw the planning, training, financing and insertion of the 9/11 terror flyers, and many other Al Qaedan heavy hitters. The Al Qaeda and Taliban remnants are now crouching in hiding and mutual isolation rather than running massive training camps throughout a country that recently had 90% of its citizens ignore terror threats to vote for their own democratic representation. 44% of those voters were women. In less than three years, a a brutal and misogynistic Islamofascist regime providing a base for a global terror network has been morphed into a budding democracy; a cesspool of terror is being long-term-drained before our very eyes. And a similar boil-lancing is also happening in Iraq - their vote will be held in January. Not coincidentally, in the three years since 9/11 not one successful Al Qaeda attack has been perpetrated within US borders. Of course, I still want platters festooned with the heads of Bin Laden, Zawahiri, Zarqawi and Mullah Omar, and I an confident that it is coming. And the Bush administration deserves the credit for all this.
[Joe Dees] It seems that the chickendoves who are still yet attempting to fulfill his foul legacy of changing this list from one that studies many memetic infections in general to one that embodies one memetic infestation in particular are only willing to move in these directions implicitly, rather than to with honesty, clarity and integrity own up to them in word as well as in deed.
[Casey] I think I speak with clarity when I say that studying your neo-conservative memetic infection is trite. We've seen you display it time and time again and it's appalling what a memetic infection like your own can do to a once-rational and intelligent individual.
[Joe Dees 2] How surpassingly strange; it is I who also have seen once-rational and intelligent individuals fall under a memebotic thrall here on list. I can list both good and bad things about both candidates. Both have fiscal policies that suck on dry ice (borrow and spend vs. tax and spend). Kerry's domestic social aganda is laudable while Bush's is dismaying. But I cannot trust Kerry with the safety and security of this nation in the face of Islamofascist terror. You want my thoughts, not cut-and-paste? well, here they are:
While I believe that both would be fiscally disastrous (tax and spend vs. borrow and spend), and while I prefer Kerry's social agenda, I cannot trust him not to pull a Vietnam in the War on Terror. The cost to our nation, its freedoms, and the lives of its citizens of such a move would be so catastrophically, devastatingly staggering that I am quite willing to wait for four more years for that social agenda to be pursued in order to protect and preserve the lives and freedoms we presently have, rather than risk them on someone that I cannot depend upon to demonstrate the strength and resolve that is going to be direly needed in the next few desperate years. Before this conflict is resolved, there WILL BE more attacks; we simply cannot stop them all. We have to succeed every time; they only have to succeed once to achieve another 9/11, or worse. In the face of such attacks, Kerry would, if his history is any clue, equivocate, appease and crumble. Bush has proven that he would not fold, wither or waver, and that instead, he would continue to follow his clear long-range antiterror policy: laboring to spread the democracy that is our only long-term guarantor of safety and security to the totalitarian and Islamofascist cesspools that are the foul breeding grounds of jihadist terrorists, while pursuing the forward strategy of presenting the shaheeds with an armed and alert US military they can shatter themselves against in Iraq rather than waiting for them to again come to the US and mass murder clueless civilian citizens within our own borders. Do not forget that just a week ago, in the face of threats from Taliban remnants, 90% of the people of Afghanistan went to the polls and voted for their own representative government. 44% of those who voted were women. And this happened in a country which was, only three years ago, dominated by a brutal, misogynist and Islamofascistally fundamentalist Taliban that was a client state of Bin Laden's al Qaeda. This next January, the people of Iraq will vote on their own representative government; less than two years ago, the totalitarian Saddam Hussein, a man who had nerve-gassed his own people, invaded other countries, paid the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, and filled torture dungeons, rape rooms and mass graves with millions, was plotting to evade UN sanctions and reconstitute his WMD program. Libya has renounced its WMD program, and the covert global nuclear proliferation network of A. Q. Khan has been rolled up and closed down. 50 million people have been freed from terrorist-breeding repression and tyranny to pursue their own democratic and peaceful lives. And we are safer for all of this by far. We should not attempt to dismount this strongly swimming horse midstream in the war on terrorists because we dislike the color of his social agenda coat and try to make the shore astride a spineless worm.
RE: virus: US seizes independent media sites
« Reply #13 on: 2004-10-14 16:04:57 »
'Knowing full well'? Actually I thought Joe Dees had been banned altogether. I am not a habituee of the BBS - I keep meaning to check in more regularly- and prefer the e-mail list for various reasons.
Last I heard, Joe had been kicked for also flooding the BBS. Plainly I got the wrong impression or there have been subsequent developments.
Cut and paste postings by me? I dispute that but in any case I think the issue is more one of volume than it is of format. In this respect, and in many another, I feel certain the congregation will have no difficulty in distinguishing the differences between us.
In truth, I do not miss Joe's postings on the e-mail list, nor have I any desire to read them on the BBS. I have no more stomach for American foreign 'policy', nor words to describe my utter contempt for the political process that has made it possible.
[Joe Dees] JerryLee is apparently confused and mistaken; he must somehow think that Mermaid was arguing with him, not me, for he is the person who just manifestly demonstrated disarmed, rather than disarming, wit. For instance, he apparently considers it to be an act of magnanimous and beneficient tolerance that I am allowed to post here at all; however, I consider the fact that my emails are, alone of all the members, not publicly sent to the list members at large to be the most shameful badge of intolerance and ideological bigotry I have ever seen on a list.
[Casey] So, why do you continue to post to this list if this is such an intorable and ideologically bigoted list?
[Jonathan] I think Joe continues to post and read here because he loves a good fight and enjoys the non-political posts.
[Joe Dees] But it gets even worse than that. These same enlightened angels of beneficient tolerance and love of progressive diversity also attempted to prevent me from even posting to the BBS; if I could post neither to the email list nor to the BBS, I would be effectively and totally disenfranchised - there would be no practical, pragmatic distinction between such a status and that of a nonmember.
[Casey] If you're reputation rises, then this is a non-issue. But, your reputation, per Meridion, is at a low level because your posts are, more often that not, cut and pasted articles, with nary a word of your own contributed to the discussion.
[Jonathan] Meridion is not really much use in this case. A consensus has built up about Joe, some of it justified, some of it manipulated (he has definitely been baited at times). We need heterodoxy. We need contrarians. We need diversity. If we do not have these then we will become dogmatic and a facsimile of the theist churches. Meridion-as-popularity-contest-and-license-to-post is rife with internal contradictions. There is no mechanism for reform. We are stuck forever with the views and likes (or dislikes) of the founding members. It is like equity (the actors union). You cannot be an actor without an equity card and you cannot get an equity card if you have not acted professionally. A closed shop as they say in trade unionism. Is this what we want for the CoV?
Meridion will only really work for this sort of thing when we are large and diverse enough to have the "wisdom of crowds" phenomenon apply. By using it to decide policy and rules now risks a logical short circuit.
It is no unlike capitalism in its mechanism. "Reputation" concentrates with a few people who use it to reform the church in ways that make it more and more inhospitable for certain types of people and eventually those other people leave. You get positive feedback (bad thing, despite its name). We end up having dogma.
What would this church do if we had 20 deeply (politically) conservative atheist rationalists join us. Big Bush supporters, but otherwise rationalist atheists. Say they formed a cabal, all rated each other 9 and started targeting our more liberal members for political combat and even ejection. Say they invited 40 more of their cronies. And suddenly the lefties in the church are a minority. A OPPRESSED minority. What then? Surrender to Meridion ratings? I don't think so.
Is Meridion your protection? What are the mechanisms to ensure that minority rights are up-held (and I would think that right or reply is pretty much a staple, something partially denied Joe Dees in this forum).
You get my point I hope. How we treat unpopular people is a measure of our maturity and strength. Keep in mind popularity itself can be a bias and weapon of unfairness and irrationality.
[Joe Dees] They seem to have contracted not only a memetic disease, but one that seems fundamentalist and totalitarian in nature; one that views any dissent from the dogmatic party line as anathema to be inoculated against and attacked via personal insult, shunning, silencing and, finally, a shamefully co-ordinated ratification of list dhimmitude.
[Casey] Take a look in the mirror, Joe. You've become a neo-conservative memebot; having gone off the deep end with your neo-conservative-laced cut and pasted articles.
[Jonathan] Casey, I have to disagree with you here. Joe is not a memebot but he sometimes takes the fight to people here who spam the list with (unwanted by me) leftist/anti-Bush/anti-American political pronouncements and propaganda pieces .
Joe balances up. If there were more people like Joe in this church the reply-to-propaganda load would be shared as it is by Joes opponents.
It is like measuring aggression by the number of punches a man throws, then denouncing a man who is attacked by 5 people as "aggressive" because he throws more punches (on average) than his foes.
Joe is at a disadvantage because he is massively outnumbered. But he *represents* a very valid (and dare I say it, popular) viewpoint. We can shut our ears to it, ban it, denounce it, but it will not go away.
[Joe Dees] At least Hermit, as execrable as he was in his comments concerning my mother and as much as he waged warfare against me for calling him to account for his wildly inaccurate predictions concerning Afghanistan, (where, contrary to his crystal ball and candle stylings, the US military didn't die en masse, the Afghani people didn't die in masse of cold or starvation, the Taliban was deposed in an amazingly short time, there was a subsequent mass return of refugees rather than mass exodus, and a democratic election was just held in which 90% of the eligible people signed up and voted - including 44% of the vote being cast by women), he at least had the stones to EXPLICITLY endeavor to expel this dissenter and morph this list into a clone of Smirkingchimp.com or moveon.org and a cyberarm of George Soros, Michael Moore and the Democratic campaign.
[Casey] You raised the issue of personal insult, yet you tossed one out here referring to Hermit as "execrable". It's a two-way street. Your words have already come back to haunt you here.
[Jonathan] No, Joe said here "as execrable as he was *in his comments concerning my mother*". Hermit's comments were just that. Not even he defends them.
Lets be fair Casey. Joe is mainly *responding*. Double standards are routinely applied to Joe.
We discussed this in June. It might be worth rereading what I said then in the context of quoting the scripture of Joe's own words against himself.
[Casey] In regards to Afghanistan - the US went there with the explicit goal to root out Osama bin Laden. That goal has NOT been met. The US cannot consider it a success until Osama has been apprehended.
[Jonathan] This is simply not true. The aims (and there are many) included destroying Al Qaeda's base of operations (achieved), kill or capture Osama bin Laden (I believe he is dead), install a democracy (achieved) etc etc.
These are massive successes.
[Casey] Going into Afghanistan with the troops levels the US used was simply a mistake on the war planners parts. If we had used our troops, instead of Northern Alliance troops that were often times enemies of one another, then we might have apprehended/killed Osama. But, the US didn't. Chalk that mistake on the Bush administration.
[Jonathan] This is simply wrong. Osama is probably dead and his escape (if he made it) was simply luck. You cannot move thousands of troops into the Hindu Kush in days and it is likely he was (and if he lives, is) hiding in that region since before 9/11. The strategy of getting the Northern Alliance to fight on the ground was brilliant and ALL the dire predictions that people like Hermit made turned out to be completely and utterly wrong exactly as Joe has stated.
[Joe Dees] It seems that the chickendoves who are still yet attempting to fulfill his foul legacy of changing this list from one that studies many memetic infections in general to one that embodies one memetic infestation in particular are only willing to move in these directions implicitly, rather than to with honesty, clarity and integrity own up to them in word as well as in deed.
[Casey] I think I speak with clarity when I say that studying your neo-conservative memetic infection is trite. We've seen you display it time and time again and it's appalling what a memetic infection like your own can do to a once-rational and intelligent individual.
[Jonathan] This vituperation and ire is in my view misplaced. You and Joe agree on far far more than you disagree ( bit like Kerry and Bush then huh?) :-)
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