Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale,
by a Soldier
http://www.nationalcenter.org/2004/07/fahrenheit-911-and-its-impact-
on.html
Army Spc. Joe Roche has perhaps the harshest words yet for
Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, describing its impact on the
morale of our troops deployed overseas as "devastating."

In typical Joe fashion, he did something about the matter. He
made copies of this Independence Institute rebuttal of Moore's
film (29 pages in small font, he says!) and distributed it widely
among U.S. troops in Kuwait.

But I'll get out of the way and let Joe speak:
    Michael Moore's film, Fahrenheit 9/11, is making the
    rounds here at U.S. bases in Kuwait. Some soldiers have
    received it already and are passing is around. The impact
    is devastating.
   
    Here we are, soldiers of the 1st Armored Division, just
    days from finally returning home after over a year serving
    in Iraq, and Moore's film is shocking and crushing
    soldiers, making them feel ashamed. Moore has abused the
    First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy
    has.
   
    There are the young and impressionable soldiers, like
    those who joined the Army right out of high school. They
    aren't familiar w/ the college-type political debate
    environment, and they haven't been schooled in the full
    range of issues involved. They are vulnerable to being hurt
    by a vicious film like Moore's.
   
    There are others who joined for reasons of money and
    other benefits, and never gave full thought to the issues.
    For them, seeing this film has jolted them grievously
    because they never even knew where some of these
    countries were that we have been serving in. Imagine the
    impact this film has on them.
   
    And there are those who are hurting from being away from
    family and loved ones. They are burnt out, already hurting
    inside from 15 months of duty out here, and now to be hit
    w/ this film.. it is devastating.
   
    Lastly, there are those like me, who want to explode in
    anger and rage at this abuse of the First Amendment and
    the way Moore has twisted reality so harshly.
   
    Specialist Janecek, who is feeling depressed because a
    close family member is nearing the end of her life, just
    saw the film today. I saw him in the DFAC. He is
    devastated. "I feel shitty, ashamed, like this was all a lie."
    Not only is he looking at going straight to a funeral when
    he returns home, but now whatever pride he felt for
    serving here has been crushed by Moore's film. Specialist
    Everett earlier after seeing the film: "You'll be mad at shit
    for ever having come here."
   
    And there are others. Mostly the comments are absolute
    shock at the close connections Moore makes between the
    Bush family and the Bin Laden family in Saudi Arabia.
    "Bush looks really really REALLY corrupt in this film. I
    just don't know what to think anymore," is a common
    comment to hear. Some of these soldiers are darn right
    ashamed tonight to be American soldiers, to have been
    apart of this whole mission in Iraq, and are angry over all
    that Moore has presented in his film.
   
    We know this is all based on Moore's lies and deceptions.
    But we, I'm afraid, are a minority. Right now, just days
    away from what should be a proud and happy return from
    15 months of duty in Operation Iraqi Freedom, your U.S.
    soldiers are coming back ashamed and hurt because of
    Moore's work.
   
    What these good yet impressionable soldiers don't realize
    is that twisting reality and manipulating the truth is
    something lawyers do every day in court for their clients.
    OJ Simpson, so clearly guilty in the ghastly murders, was
    able to get off because his lawyer team completely
    confused the issue. Now today, in typical fashion, Moore
    is doing the very same thing in this film. This is, frankly,
    the nature of political debate in a democracy -- especially
    when extremism is allowed to go unchecked.
   
    Lt. Bischoff is so angry he could explode. He knows
    Moore's work is based on lies and distortions, but as he
    says, "the damage is done." Clearly, this is the type of
    thing we expect from angry leftists like Moore. What we
    didn't expect was the full impact this film is now having
    and how it has been embraced and supported by so many
    Hollywood elites. Lt. Bischoff says Moore's film is a work
    of deception, lies and distortions that when seen by those
    unfamiliar w/ the issues involved, has the effect of
    attacking the American peoples' resolve and focus in this
    war.
   
    From what I've heard from the soldiers, the things that
    have them most shocked and upset them are the
    connections Moore makes between the Bush family and
    the Bin Ladens. The impression is that Bush is part of a
    conspiracy that supported the September 11th terrorist
    attacks. They speak of how Moore makes a convincing
    case all the way from the 2000 election to now that Bush
    and Cheney are all about making money. That the
    September 11th attacks were merely calculated by them as
    to how they would earn them more money. They speak of
    the Saudi who was a fellow soldier w/ Bush in the
    National Guard, and how Moore makes it all look like
    Bush is more beholden to Saudi interests than US interests.
   
    Moore's commentary and striking video stunts, such as
    confronting politicians w/ enlistment papers for their kids,
    of course hurts and affects these soldiers out here badly.
    These are the ones who have sacrificed much to serve.
    Moore's stunt is powerful.
   
    I sometimes want to be mad at my fellow soldiers for
    being susceptible to Moore's distortions, but I can't really
    blame them. These are good Americans, who have
    volunteered to serve our country. Nothing says they all
    have to be experts in Middle Eastern issues and history
    and politics to serve. That would be silly. ...But this is, of
    course, the vulnerability that Moore has exploited.
   
    I wonder how damaging and shocking a Moore project
    would have been in the 1940s making such a video of
    Franklin Roosevelt. All the corruption and decadence in
    that administration would have fed such a project well. Or
    how damaging and shocking would such a Moore project
    have been to Lincoln, who wavered and shifted often in
    finding the right mediums and balances in pursuing the
    great causes of the Civil War. ...Need I even suggest the
    impact such would have had on Kennedy or Johnson and
    all their hypocrisies?
   
    Moore is hurting us, hurting America, and today I can tell
    you he is hurting your soldiers. I don't know what to ask,
    except that good people out there find ways to organize
    information so that we can better counter Moore's impact.
    Is there anyone in Hollywood who is willing to stand up
    and make a similar film to counter Moore's? I know good
    people w/ integrity in the film industry don't want to be
    seen as pushing a political agenda in movies. But this is
    EXACTLY what Moore and the radical leftists in
    Hollywood have done. Is there no way to put together a
    response to them?
   
    I hope more people will arm themselves w/ the facts and
    the realities of the situation out here and in the world at
    large. Our political arena is taking a big hit from this film
    by Moore, and it should tell us all something when
    terrorist groups like Hezbollah are distributing it around to
    their own people.
   
    I think it is sad and unfortunate that at this last hour of a
    long and difficult deployment, so many soldiers are being
    made to feel ashamed and "shitty" for having ever served
    in this whole mission. Moore has abused the First
    Amendment. This is his right, and we soldiers have
    defended that right, but we who know better should NOT
    just sit back and let such enemies w/in our own country get
    by w/ such assaults unanswered.

---
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(Joe) People cannot avoid coming to fallacious conclusions
when they apply sound logic to false premises.  But that is what
Michael Moore's propaganda piece is tailored to do - maliciously
provide those false premises.  He does not care about the truth of
the matter; he only cares that people adopt his anti-Bush stance,
even if such a stance is based upon the uncritical acceptance of
Michael Moore's lies.  The movie is truly Soviet'style propaganda,
and has been denounced as such by the Poles, who know Soviet-
style propaganda when they see it.
Poles call 9/11 film 'propaganda'
Michael Moore's contentious film Fahrenheit 9/11 has
opened
in Poland, with some film critics likening it to
totalitarian
propaganda.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3923385.stm
Gazeta Wyborcza reviewer Jacek Szczerba called the
film a "foul
pamphlet".
He said it was too biased to be called a documentary
and was
similar to Nazi propaganda director Leni Riefenstahl.
But politicians opposed to the country's involvement
in the US-led
occupation of Iraq have urged people to see the film.
"In criticising Moore, I have to admit that he has
certain abilities -
Leni Riefenstahl had them too," Mr Szczerba said in
his review.
"Michael Moore will not convince Poles with his
film," the
Rzeczpospolita newspaper said in its review.
'A lot of truth'
"People are very sensitive to aggressive propaganda,
especially
when it pretends to be an objective documentary or a
work of art."
The Polish government has supported the US-led
operations in
Iraq, and the Poles are in charge of a 6,200-strong
force in
southern Iraq. More than 2,000 Polish troops are
currently serving
in Iraq.
"The film contained some propaganda, but there was
also a lot of
truth in it," Pole Elzbieta Karwinska, 58, said after
seeing the film.
"But I see no direct connection between the film and
the Polish
army in Iraq. I think that Poland is in Iraq for
completely different
reasons," she said.
This week, an Australian government minister
described Moore as
"the quintessential ugly American", after the film
maker criticised
the Australian prime minister's support of US
President George
Bush, saying: "What is John Howard doing in bed with
an idiot?".
(Sean said) Good!
On Mon, 2004-07-26 at 21:16, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale,
> by a Soldier
> http://www.nationalcenter.org/2004/07/fahrenheit-911-and-its-impact-
> on.html
> Army Spc. Joe Roche has perhaps the harshest words yet for
> Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, describing its impact on the
> morale of our troops deployed overseas as "devastating."
>
> In typical Joe fashion, he did something about the matter. He
> made copies of this Independence Institute rebuttal of Moore's
> film (29 pages in small font, he says!) and distributed it widely
> among U.S. troops in Kuwait.
>
> But I'll get out of the way and let Joe speak:
> Michael Moore's film, Fahrenheit 9/11, is making the
> rounds here at U.S. bases in Kuwait. Some soldiers have
> received it already and are passing is around. The impact
> is devastating.
>
> Here we are, soldiers of the 1st Armored Division, just
> days from finally returning home after over a year serving
> in Iraq, and Moore's film is shocking and crushing
> soldiers, making them feel ashamed. Moore has abused the
> First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy
> has.
>
> There are the young and impressionable soldiers, like
> those who joined the Army right out of high school. They
> aren't familiar w/ the college-type political debate
> environment, and they haven't been schooled in the full
> range of issues involved. They are vulnerable to being hurt
> by a vicious film like Moore's.
>
> There are others who joined for reasons of money and
> other benefits, and never gave full thought to the issues.
> For them, seeing this film has jolted them grievously
> because they never even knew where some of these
> countries were that we have been serving in. Imagine the
> impact this film has on them.
>
> And there are those who are hurting from being away from
> family and loved ones. They are burnt out, already hurting
> inside from 15 months of duty out here, and now to be hit
> w/ this film.. it is devastating.
>
> Lastly, there are those like me, who want to explode in
> anger and rage at this abuse of the First Amendment and
> the way Moore has twisted reality so harshly.
>
> Specialist Janecek, who is feeling depressed because a
> close family member is nearing the end of her life, just
> saw the film today. I saw him in the DFAC. He is
> devastated. "I feel shitty, ashamed, like this was all a lie."
> Not only is he looking at going straight to a funeral when
> he returns home, but now whatever pride he felt for
> serving here has been crushed by Moore's film. Specialist
> Everett earlier after seeing the film: "You'll be mad at shit
> for ever having come here."
>
> And there are others. Mostly the comments are absolute
> shock at the close connections Moore makes between the
> Bush family and the Bin Laden family in Saudi Arabia.
> "Bush looks really really REALLY corrupt in this film. I
> just don't know what to think anymore," is a common
> comment to hear. Some of these soldiers are darn right
> ashamed tonight to be American soldiers, to have been
> apart of this whole mission in Iraq, and are angry over all
> that Moore has presented in his film.
>
> We know this is all based on Moore's lies and deceptions.
> But we, I'm afraid, are a minority. Right now, just days
> away from what should be a proud and happy return from
> 15 months of duty in Operation Iraqi Freedom, your U.S.
> soldiers are coming back ashamed and hurt because of
> Moore's work.
>
> What these good yet impressionable soldiers don't realize
> is that twisting reality and manipulating the truth is
> something lawyers do every day in court for their clients.
> OJ Simpson, so clearly guilty in the ghastly murders, was
> able to get off because his lawyer team completely
> confused the issue. Now today, in typical fashion, Moore
> is doing the very same thing in this film. This is, frankly,
> the nature of political debate in a democracy -- especially
> when extremism is allowed to go unchecked.
>
> Lt. Bischoff is so angry he could explode. He knows
> Moore's work is based on lies and distortions, but as he
> says, "the damage is done." Clearly, this is the type of
> thing we expect from angry leftists like Moore. What we
> didn't expect was the full impact this film is now having
> and how it has been embraced and supported by so many
> Hollywood elites. Lt. Bischoff says Moore's film is a work
> of deception, lies and distortions that when seen by those
> unfamiliar w/ the issues involved, has the effect of
> attacking the American peoples' resolve and focus in this
> war.
>
> From what I've heard from the soldiers, the things that
> have them most shocked and upset them are the
> connections Moore makes between the Bush family and
> the Bin Ladens. The impression is that Bush is part of a
> conspiracy that supported the September 11th terrorist
> attacks. They speak of how Moore makes a convincing
> case all the way from the 2000 election to now that Bush
> and Cheney are all about making money. That the
> September 11th attacks were merely calculated by them as
> to how they would earn them more money. They speak of
> the Saudi who was a fellow soldier w/ Bush in the
> National Guard, and how Moore makes it all look like
> Bush is more beholden to Saudi interests than US interests.
>
> Moore's commentary and striking video stunts, such as
> confronting politicians w/ enlistment papers for their kids,
> of course hurts and affects these soldiers out here badly.
> These are the ones who have sacrificed much to serve.
> Moore's stunt is powerful.
>
> I sometimes want to be mad at my fellow soldiers for
> being susceptible to Moore's distortions, but I can't really
> blame them. These are good Americans, who have
> volunteered to serve our country. Nothing says they all
> have to be experts in Middle Eastern issues and history
> and politics to serve. That would be silly. ...But this is, of
> course, the vulnerability that Moore has exploited.
>
> I wonder how damaging and shocking a Moore project
> would have been in the 1940s making such a video of
> Franklin Roosevelt. All the corruption and decadence in
> that administration would have fed such a project well. Or
> how damaging and shocking would such a Moore project
> have been to Lincoln, who wavered and shifted often in
> finding the right mediums and balances in pursuing the
> great causes of the Civil War. ...Need I even suggest the
> impact such would have had on Kennedy or Johnson and
> all their hypocrisies?
>
> Moore is hurting us, hurting America, and today I can tell
> you he is hurting your soldiers. I don't know what to ask,
> except that good people out there find ways to organize
> information so that we can better counter Moore's impact.
> Is there anyone in Hollywood who is willing to stand up
> and make a similar film to counter Moore's? I know good
> people w/ integrity in the film industry don't want to be
> seen as pushing a political agenda in movies. But this is
> EXACTLY what Moore and the radical leftists in
> Hollywood have done. Is there no way to put together a
> response to them?
>
> I hope more people will arm themselves w/ the facts and
> the realities of the situation out here and in the world at
> large. Our political arena is taking a big hit from this film
> by Moore, and it should tell us all something when
> terrorist groups like Hezbollah are distributing it around to
> their own people.
>
> I think it is sad and unfortunate that at this last hour of a
> long and difficult deployment, so many soldiers are being
> made to feel ashamed and "shitty" for having ever served
> in this whole mission. Moore has abused the First
> Amendment. This is his right, and we soldiers have
> defended that right, but we who know better should NOT
> just sit back and let such enemies w/in our own country get
> by w/ such assaults unanswered.

---
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>

24 million Iraqis do not consider it illegitimate.=0D
Even in WW II, the allies and the axis were not clearly definable except =
in
retrospect.  Who could've predicted that Britain would ally themselves
against the European land mass with their former rebellious colony, or th=
at
the Imperial Japanese would ally themselves with those who considered the=
m
to be subhuman, or that Stalin and Hitler would put aside their profound
differences in order to divvy up Poland - until Hitler launched a preempt=
ive
betrayal?=0D
OFCOURSE Saddam and Assad and the Iranian Mullahs and the Taliban and Bin
Laden's al Qaeda would cooperate against a common enemy and settle their =
own
differences later.  But only in retrospect is the cooperative axis of
Islamofascist fundamentalists (of both Sunni and Shiite stripe) and
Stalinist style dictators readily discerned.=0D
Hitler declared that he would conquer Europe and exterminate the Jews, an=
d
nobody believed him because he was weak - but as he was allowed to contin=
ue
his depredations unopposed, he grew stronger.  Now another violent moveme=
nt
proclaims that they will subjugate the world to their medieval laws and
liquidate the Jews, one that takes as long a view of history as did the
Marxists, and is willing to wage their kind of war for centuries.  Those =
who
do not learn the lessons which the mistakes made in history teach, George=
s
Santayana said, are condemned to repeat them.  A hard lesson for an
inattentive, MTV-trained generation to absorb.  It takes time.  But while
the threat is being dismissed or ignored, as it was in the Clinton
administration, time is not that generation's friend.=0D
=0D
-------Original Message-------=0D
=0D
From: virus@lucifer.com=0D
Date: 07/27/04 06:23:24=0D
To: virus@lucifer.com=0D
Subject: RE: virus: Fahrenheit 9/11 and Its Impact on Military Morale, by=
a
Soldier=0D
=0D
Joe Dees=0D
Sent: 27 July 2004 12:16=0D
=0D
<snip>=0D
=2E...given his information at the time. The idea that they were intentio=
nally
=0D
knowingly and cynically thrust into an illegitimate war is a pure Moorean=
=0D
lie. <snip>=0D
=0D
[Blunderov] Well paint my barn red! Turns out America was unintentionally=
,=0D
ignorantly and naively thrust into an illegitimate war instead of what th=
at=0D
lying Moore claims.=0D
=0D
Four more years!=0D
=0D
Best Regards.=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
---=0D
To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/=
virus-l>

attached: index.html

[...] Michael Moore's film, Fahrenheit 9/11, is making the rounds here at U.S. bases in Kuwait. Some soldiers have received it already and are passing is around. The impact is devastating. Here we are, soldiers of the 1st Armored Division, just days from finally returning home after over a year serving in Iraq, and Moore's film is shocking and crushing soldiers, making them feel ashamed. Moore has abused the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has.

[Mermaid]First..the movie is mostly about the Bush administration and the lies it told to get the country into war with Iraq..WMDs..and all that..why should the soldiers feel ashamed? if anything, they should be outraged...shame is an odd emotion, i'd think

(Joe) But it has been shown that Bush acted as any president, even Kerry, would have, given his information at the time. The idea that they were intentionally, knowingly and cynically thrust into an illegitimate war is a pure Moorean lie.

secondly...how can one 'abuse' the first amendment? first amendment=freedom of speech..using that freedom of speech is 'abuse'?

(Joe) It's kinda like yelling 'fire' in a crowded threatre. Does freedom
of speech include the freedom to maliciously lie, where such lies can costlives?

thirdly...how has the 'enemy' *hurt* us..no american city was attacked..no american civilians killed in american soil by the 'enemy'...maybe he means the bush administration when he says 'enemy'?

(Joe) No, the intent was there, and the prior actions (Saddam was implicated in the 1993 attack on the same Twin Towers). He had also tried to assassinate Dubya's father, and was clearly attempting to obtain any WMD's he could (this ties into Joe Wilson's lie that Iraq was not trying to get uranium-rich yellowcake from Africa, when subsequent evidence shows that they were). In a situation where a few fanatics are able to surreptitiously globally travel and smuggle the means to kill millions into their target country, there can be no more waiting until the mushroom cloud rises in order to try to trace the perpetrators back to their enablers so as to seek just retribution.

[...] There are the young and impressionable soldiers, like those who joined the Army right out of high school. They aren't familiar w/ the college-type political debate environment, and they haven't been schooled in the full range of issues involved. They are vulnerable to being hurt by a vicious film like Moore's.

[Mermaid] right..but these 'impressionable' school kids are fit enough to bomb the shit out of iraq, but are 'vulnerable' to a documentary..at least, they werent getting buggered by the 'enemy'...iraqis schoolkids should be so lucky...who is letting them into the army if they are still such babies..oh whoops..waitaminute...
(Joe) They were well trained enough to do their job, and do it surpassingly well, freeing 24 million Iraqis in the process. There is no requirement for soldiers to be able to sniff out maliciously lying propaganda purveyed by a sinister citizen of their own country.

[...]There are others who joined for reasons of money and other benefits, and never gave full thought to the issues. For them, seeing this film has jolted them grievously because they never even knew where some of these countries were that we have been serving in. Imagine the impact this film has on them.

[Mermaid]they didnt know where iraq and afghanistan were on the map? that explains the friendly fire...
(Joe) Oh Puh-LEEEZE! Talk about maxing out the clueless snark meter!

[...]And there are those who are hurting from being away from family and loved ones. They are burnt out, already hurting inside from 15 months of duty out here, and now to be hit w/ this film.. it is devastating.

[Mermaid]not as devastating as it is for those who are huring from losing family, limb and their homes...not to mention those who have been buggered, sexually abused and paraded naked...
Like the masses were under Saddam? Just TRY to shovel that steaming pseudorationale to the majority of now-freed Iraqis and see how far you get.  Except for the Sunni triangle Baathist collaborators and their new Al Qaeda friends and the dwindling Shiite fanatics taking their orders from the Iranian Mullahs, practically all Iraqis are grateful that Saddam is gone and are looking forward to participatory democracy. Besides, Saddam killed more Iraqis in a month - every month - of a 21 year reign than the Us killed in the entire occupation, and the ones that the US killed were the ones who were killing the others under Saddam's reign.  But I know that you do not celebrate all those saved Iraqi lives, because it was the US that saved them, any more than you mourn the two million that Saddam killed during his reign, because it wasn't the US that killed them.


[...]Lastly, there are those like me, who want to explode in anger and rage at this abuse of the First Amendment and the way Moore has twisted reality so harshly.

[Mermaid]awwwwwwwwwwww

(Joe) I know; you do not care how harshly reality is twisted, so long as the direction of the warping dovetails with the fulfillment of your own prejudices.

[...]"I feel shitty, ashamed, like this was all a lie."

[Mermaid]Yes. it was a lie that led to this war.
(Joe) The slavery, rape and murder under Saddam were not a lie. The mass graves he filled were not a lie (he has killed more Muslims than anyone else in the wide scope of history). The WMD's found in Iraq, dumped in the Tigris-Euphrates and transhipped across Syria into the Bekaa Valley are no lie. The 25k per shaheed that Saddam paid to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers was no lie. You would prefer that this monster were still ruling Iraq, to be followed by his bloodthirsty sons??

[...]Not only is he looking at going straight to a funeral when he returns home, but now whatever pride he felt for serving here has been crushed by Moore's film. Specialist Everett earlier after seeing the film: "You'll be mad at shit for ever having come here."

[Mermaid]My sympathies...anyone who has been robbed or mugged or attacked or conned will express similiar sentiments...
(Joe) I only hope that he receives better information, and becomes mad at the proper target of such anger - the purveyor of such lies -  instead.  I wouldn't want to be in Michael Moore's shoes when all those battle-hardened veterans come home and realize what a vicious and malicious crock of shit he fed them.

[...]"Bush looks really really REALLY corrupt in this film. I just don't know what to think anymore," is a common comment to hear. Some of these soldiers are darn right ashamed tonight to be American soldiers, to have been apart of this whole mission in Iraq, and are angry over all that Moore has presented in his film.

[Mermaid]Moore has indeed earned his accolades...the message has hit home!

(Joe) Yeah, the message that 20-something military grunts are as susceptible to slick propaganda as Bush-hating Virions.

[Mermaid]I am not going to give commentary to each and every quote..but I am glad that Joe Dees has *finally* seen the light...by posting an article that clearly makes the point as to why the war is unjust and the bush admin sucks, joe dees has shown us all that he is coming around to accepting what we have been saying all along...we, as a community, will be supportive during this difficult time...its not easy to say 'i am wrong'...but with friends, it will be less painful... altho' the article is a very good one..even though it was a satire on a serious topic like war...tough times call for tough measures...welcome back, jd.

(Joe) Read my reply and choke on both your words and your own willfully credulous gullibility, in sucking up proveable lies just because they massage your dearly treasured prejudices - just like the Germans did with Riefenstahl.