virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« on: 2004-02-21 07:52:52 »
Faith is only faith in situations when something isn't known.
If X is known with 60 pct probability, and we take an action towards an intended outcome that presumes X's correctness, we can say we have some faith in X. In other words: in addition to our knowledge about X, some faith is required.
Now, suppose we know with 99.9 pct probability that X is true? Taking an action that presumes X's correctness would not require much faith. In fact, even saying that you have faith would sound false, if the listener knew of your knowledge.
Assuming God is all knowing, he cannot have faith.
God, in other words, is faithless.
If he does exist, I feel sorry for the bugger. Faith is a wonderful thing. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
On Sat, 2004-02-21 at 12:52, Erik Aronesty wrote: > Faith is only faith in situations when something isn't known. Hi, you make an interesting point. English uses one word when we ought to have several to exactly define what we mean. Faith, when it refers to religions, might be described as "irrational belief in a god or supernatural process despite a lack of verifiable evidence". We might also use the word to mean "certainty of belief" in a scientific sense, such as faith that the sun will apprear in the East the next morning. This might be called a justifiable faith. We also have a meaning of "reliable" as in faithful. All of these definitions overlap to some extent, the problem is that persons using the word in a religious sense use it to mean a justifiable faith, without meeting the standard of proof required. IMHO it's nothing more than inaccurate thinking caused by an inability to reason correctly.
>Assuming God is all knowing, he cannot have faith. Is it logically impossible for God to have faith in an improbable event occuring? :-) The idea of omniscience doesn't work.If God knows what you are going to do and why you are going to do it, what is the point of running Hell? If there is omniscience, then the amount of information gathered, per nano-second, would be rather large (all those sub-atomic particles and what they are doing is information too). God's memory would need to be many times larger than the number of particles in the universe in order to contain any useful information about the past, present and furure states of the universe. How is the information collected? How is it stored, and where? Finding out about a particle's state alters it (Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle). God must be able to interact with matter in order to monitor it, but must have a selective invisibility so that we can't detect him. To be honest, you could spend all day writing about the qualities needed, but you would be making an argument with so many exceptions to established fact that God ends up with no properties at all. A thing without properties does not exist (in this universe).You can justify the existance of Elves or UFOs with the same reasoning, but you don't actually get any useful information out in the end. regards, Neil
Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #2 on: 2004-02-21 19:13:27 »
When someone has faith in, say, heaven and hell - low probability possibilities with little evidence - it is nearly all pure faith.
High percentages of faith-based futures are intended to inspire others in a new concept, in order to generate a social outcome, rather than to generate the actual future.
Since faith often leads to outcomes consistent with the inspiration, people learn to think that “faith alone” is enough to create reality.
This is the delusion of which you speak.
Cryonics and SETI are 99pct faith or therebouts. But it is that small possibility, grounded in a justifiable trust in technology, that keeps the industry going.
I believe that anything we ( a large percentage of society ) have faih in - if it is extrapolated logically from what we know - will lead us down a path of great breakthrought in health and life. This is not an irrational faith - it is based on my understanding of science and patterns progress.
Which is why I evangelize transhumanism and life extension.
-----Original Message----- From: Neil Lucock <neil.lucock@zen.co.uk> Date: 21 Feb 2004 17:01:58 To:virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
On Sat, 2004-02-21 at 12:52, Erik Aronesty wrote: > Faith is only faith in situations when something isn't known. Hi, you make an interesting point. English uses one word when we ought to have several to exactly define what we mean. Faith, when it refers to religions, might be described as "irrational belief in a god or supernatural process despite a lack of verifiable evidence". We might also use the word to mean "certainty of belief" in a scientific sense, such as faith that the sun will apprear in the East the next morning. This might be called a justifiable faith. We also have a meaning of "reliable" as in faithful. All of these definitions overlap to some extent, the problem is that persons using the word in a religious sense use it to mean a justifiable faith, without meeting the standard of proof required. IMHO it's nothing more than inaccurate thinking caused by an inability to reason correctly.
>Assuming God is all knowing, he cannot have faith. Is it logically impossible for God to have faith in an improbable event occuring? :-) The idea of omniscience doesn't work.If God knows what you are going to do and why you are going to do it, what is the point of running Hell? If there is omniscience, then the amount of information gathered, per nano-second, would be rather large (all those sub-atomic particles and what they are doing is information too). God's memory would need to be many times larger than the number of particles in the universe in order to contain any useful information about the past, present and furure states of the universe. How is the information collected? How is it stored, and where? Finding out about a particle's state alters it (Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle). God must be able to interact with matter in order to monitor it, but must have a selective invisibility so that we can't detect him. To be honest, you could spend all day writing about the qualities needed, but you would be making an argument with so many exceptions to established fact that God ends up with no properties at all. A thing without properties does not exist (in this universe).You can justify the existance of Elves or UFOs with the same reasoning, but you don't actually get any useful information out in the end. regards, Neil
On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 00:13, Erik Aronesty wrote: ---snip-- > Which is why I evangelize transhumanism and life extension. > Hi, ever read Robert Anton Wilson's Schrodinger's Cat comedy? They had a SMILE economy, which if I remember correctly, stood for Space Migration, Intelligence and Life Extension.They (the political party in the novels) took the phrase "an end to death and taxes" as their slogan and worked towards achieving it.A sort of Libertarian Immortalist manifesto.
The faith you discussed, expectations as a result of extrapolation, is reasonable.An aviator in 1914 might have extrapolated trends and predicted that an aircraft might fly at 500 mph for over 6 hours carrying 200 people. Not possible at the time but they had an algorithm showing how to make inanimate things fly. All that was needed was an improvement in technological techniques to make it happen (about 50 years later). Cryonics seems to be a lost cause to me. They are putting their faith in a company (which must survive until the technology develops), an unproven technology and an assumption that future generations will want to spend time and effort on reviving that person. However, a slim chance is better than no chance at all, so if they want to spend their money that way, who am I to gainsay them? Some unexpected benefit may arise. Tutankhamun had his tomb filled with things for hsi afterlife, we learned about his life from them.Someone my need a sample of 20th Century DNA for some useful project. SETI has my vote. We should be moving to the near planets and moons (well, Mars, Luna and Titan). ciao, Neil
Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #4 on: 2004-02-22 17:44:36 »
On 25 Jan 2002 at 8:16, David Hill wrote:
The classical attributes of a deity are singularity ("there can only be one") omnicience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence ('(S)He's everywhere!"), omnibeneficence (all-good), and omnisoothience (all-true). One can immediately see that the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence cannot simultaneously inhere in a single universe. If a deity were omniscient (knew everything), then it would know the future and thus be powerless to change it, but if it were omnipotent (all-powerful), then it could change the future, and therefore could not know it for certain. It's like the simultaneous impossibility of an irresistable force and an immoveable object; if one of these two deific properties exists (and they are considered to be the most important two), then the other logically cannot. Furthermore, If deity were everywhere, it could perceive nothing, for perception requires a point of view, that is, a spatiotemporal perspective other than that of the perceived object from which to perceive that object. Deity being omnipresent (everywhere), there is nowhere that deity would not be, thus nothing it could perceive. It gets even worse. Deity must be perfect; in fact, perfection is what is broken down into all those 'omni' subcategories. thus, a perfect deity could not even think. Thought is dynamic, that is, to think, one's thought must move between conceptions. Now, thought could conceiveably move in three directions; from perfect to imperfect, from imperfect to perfect, and from imperfect to imperfect (from perfect to perfect is not an alternative, perfection being singular and movement requiring distinguishable prior and posterior). But all of the three possible alternatives contain either prior or posterior imperfection or both, which are not allowably entertained in the mind of a perfect deity.
There's much, much more that I could add, but this should more than suffice to demonstrate that asserting the existence of a deity possessing the attributes that most consider essential to it deserving the deific appelation mires one in a miasmic quagmire of irretrieveable contradiction, once one journeys beyond emotion-driven faith and uses one's noggin to divine (Luvzda pun!) the nonsensical and absurd consequences necessarily entailed.
Neil Lucock wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-02-21 at 12:52, Erik Aronesty wrote: > > Faith is only faith in situations when something isn't known. > Hi, > you make an interesting point. English uses one word when we ought to > have several to exactly define what we mean. > Faith, when it refers to religions, might be described as "irrational > belief in a god or supernatural process despite a lack of verifiable > evidence". > We might also use the word to mean "certainty of belief" in a scientific > sense, such as faith that the sun will apprear in the East the next > morning. This might be called a justifiable faith. > We also have a meaning of "reliable" as in faithful. > All of these definitions overlap to some extent, the problem is that > persons using the word in a religious sense use it to mean a justifiable > faith, without meeting the standard of proof required. IMHO it's nothing > more than inaccurate thinking caused by an inability to reason > correctly. > > >Assuming God is all knowing, he cannot have faith. > Is it logically impossible for God to have faith in an improbable event > occuring? :-) > The idea of omniscience doesn't work.If God knows what you are going to > do and why you are going to do it, what is the point of running Hell? > If there is omniscience, then the amount of information gathered, per > nano-second, would be rather large (all those sub-atomic particles and > what they are doing is information too). God's memory would need to be > many times larger than the number of particles in the universe in order > to contain any useful information about the past, present and furure > states of the universe. How is the information collected? How is it > stored, and where? Finding out about a particle's state alters it > (Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle). God must be able to interact with > matter in order to monitor it, but must have a selective invisibility so > that we can't detect him. > To be honest, you could spend all day writing about the qualities > needed, but you would be making an argument with so many exceptions to > established fact that God ends up with no properties at all. A thing > without properties does not exist (in this universe).You can justify the > existance of Elves or UFOs with the same reasoning, but you don't > actually get any useful information out in the end. > regards, > Neil > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
RE: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #5 on: 2004-02-22 18:17:26 »
I'd like to add that it is supremely ironic that the study of reason and science that were developed in the Renaissance, to better understand "God's natural order" have thus come to undermine the very concept of God in the first place.
Typically those who are rather religious and don't think about their beliefs too much will place anything related to God in a category to which reason doesn't apply.
Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #6 on: 2004-02-23 04:31:05 »
...i dont know if i mentioned this before, but i am "Omnisebby". that is, being perfectly sebby.
by the way, does the bible ever attempt to describe god's qualities or powers? or do we merely infer them?
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: Walter Watts <wlwatts@cox.net> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:44:36 -0600
On 25 Jan 2002 at 8:16, David Hill wrote:
The classical attributes of a deity are singularity ("there can only be one") omnicience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence ('(S)He's everywhere!"), omnibeneficence (all-good), and omnisoothience (all-true). One can immediately see that the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence cannot simultaneously inhere in a single universe. If a deity were omniscient (knew everything), then it would know the future and thus be powerless to change it, but if it were omnipotent (all-powerful), then it could change the future, and therefore could not know it for certain. It's like the simultaneous impossibility of an irresistable force and an immoveable object; if one of these two deific properties exists (and they are considered to be the most important two), then the other logically cannot. Furthermore, If deity were everywhere, it could perceive nothing, for perception requires a point of view, that is, a spatiotemporal perspective other than that of the perceived object from which to perceive that object. Deity being omnipresent (everywhere), there is nowhere that deity would not be, thus nothing it could perceive. It gets even worse. Deity must be perfect; in fact, perfection is what is broken down into all those 'omni' subcategories. thus, a perfect deity could not even think. Thought is dynamic, that is, to think, one's thought must move between conceptions. Now, thought could conceiveably move in three directions; from perfect to imperfect, from imperfect to perfect, and from imperfect to imperfect (from perfect to perfect is not an alternative, perfection being singular and movement requiring distinguishable prior and posterior). But all of the three possible alternatives contain either prior or posterior imperfection or both, which are not allowably entertained in the mind of a perfect deity.
There's much, much more that I could add, but this should more than suffice to demonstrate that asserting the existence of a deity possessing the attributes that most consider essential to it deserving the deific appelation mires one in a miasmic quagmire of irretrieveable contradiction, once one journeys beyond emotion-driven faith and uses one's noggin to divine (Luvzda pun!) the nonsensical and absurd consequences necessarily entailed.
Neil Lucock wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-02-21 at 12:52, Erik Aronesty wrote: > > Faith is only faith in situations when something isn't known. > Hi, > you make an interesting point. English uses one word when we ought to > have several to exactly define what we mean. > Faith, when it refers to religions, might be described as "irrational > belief in a god or supernatural process despite a lack of verifiable > evidence". > We might also use the word to mean "certainty of belief" in a scientific > sense, such as faith that the sun will apprear in the East the next > morning. This might be called a justifiable faith. > We also have a meaning of "reliable" as in faithful. > All of these definitions overlap to some extent, the problem is that > persons using the word in a religious sense use it to mean a justifiable > faith, without meeting the standard of proof required. IMHO it's nothing > more than inaccurate thinking caused by an inability to reason > correctly. > > >Assuming God is all knowing, he cannot have faith. > Is it logically impossible for God to have faith in an improbable event > occuring? :-) > The idea of omniscience doesn't work.If God knows what you are going to > do and why you are going to do it, what is the point of running Hell? > If there is omniscience, then the amount of information gathered, per > nano-second, would be rather large (all those sub-atomic particles and > what they are doing is information too). God's memory would need to be > many times larger than the number of particles in the universe in order > to contain any useful information about the past, present and furure > states of the universe. How is the information collected? How is it > stored, and where? Finding out about a particle's state alters it > (Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle). God must be able to interact with > matter in order to monitor it, but must have a selective invisibility so > that we can't detect him. > To be honest, you could spend all day writing about the qualities > needed, but you would be making an argument with so many exceptions to > established fact that God ends up with no properties at all. A thing > without properties does not exist (in this universe).You can justify the > existance of Elves or UFOs with the same reasoning, but you don't > actually get any useful information out in the end. > regards, > Neil > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
Do you follow the Bible word for word? Do you try to follow God's good example? I read the Bible to see what God was like, and I agree with all Christian Theists. The Bible is the Word of God, undisputed. I read the Bible for answers and I got them. I asked the Bible: What is God like? It told me. *** "Well young grasshopper, God. *** .cursed, and used to slap animals around!" Genesis: 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. *** .had a bit of a speech problem..." Isaiah: 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly. *** .pukes a little here and there..." Revelations: 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. *** .changes his mind now and then... (an indecisive character!)" Exodus: 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. *** .moons folks (just like a good ol' boy!) (The darn straight edge; he's even is a little shy in the process...)" Exodus: 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. *** .talks to the devil just like all the real Satanists..." Job : 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. *** .bum rushes angels with folly. (good help is hard to come by, so its ok)..." Job : 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly. *** .causes adultery (love thy neighbor stuff...)" 2 Samuel: 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. *** .causes suicide:" Jeremiah: 19:7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. *** .causes "indecency" (if He can moon, they can streak, right?)" Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. *** .tells people to lie." 1 Samuel: 16:2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD. *** .loves to oppress (but he is a good Capitalist, like Karl Marx)" Hosea: 12:7 He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress. *** .rewards transgressors and fools." Proverbs: 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors. *** .orders men to drink, be drunk, and vomit (frat-house party animal!)" Jeremiah: 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you. 25:28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. *** .wipes shit on peoples faces:" Malachi: 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. *** .Has really bad table manners... (well, he handles shit to spread on faces, what do you expect?)" Hosea: 13:8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. *** .deceives his own prophets" Jeremiah: 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. *** .sought to kill his own emissary" Exodus: 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. *** .sanctions slavery" Exodus: 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. *** .orders slave-capturing expeditions" (kill the men, keep the booty!) Deuteronomy: 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. *** .orders the slaughter of men, women, and children (a little blood lust there?)" 1 Samuel: 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. *** After killing off the men, keep the virgins around for 'a good time'" Numbers: 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. *** .poor fella', he can't even trust the truth, so he send delusions to damn people" 2 Thessalonians: 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. *** .has white hair" DAN 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. *** .gets tired and needs a rest" GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. *** .smokes up a little now and then." PSA 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. *** .has various body parts" PSA 17:4 Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer.
PSA 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
PSA 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
ISA 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
ISA 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
PSA 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
PSA 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. *** .gambles (fixes the dice and lets his people be distributed that way)"
PRO 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
JOS 18:6 Ye shall therefore describe the land into seven parts, and bring the description hither to me, that I may cast lots for you here before the LORD our God.
JOE 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
OBA 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
JON 1:7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
NAH 3:10 Yet was she carried away, she went into captivity: her young children also were dashed in pieces at the top of all the streets: and they cast lots for her honourable men, and all her great men were bound in chains. <q>
Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #8 on: 2004-02-23 10:48:30 »
Perhaps God is a simple way of explaining why covalent bonds are stronger that ionic ones and why cooperation is, quite often, an economically correct decision.
Virtues are deeply embedded in this universe. And although it is far easier to destroy than it is to create complexity, extropy seems to be winning out over entropy.
God, if it means anything for me, is a meta-concept for all these sorts of magnificences that seem to be present.
Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #9 on: 2004-02-23 18:48:27 »
It sounds like you are describing the “universe itself”. The substrate in which reality as it is commonly known is cultures.
-----Original Message----- From: Walter Watts <wlwatts@cox.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:44:36 To:virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
On 25 Jan 2002 at 8:16, David Hill wrote:
The classical attributes of a deity are singularity ("there can only be one") omnicience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence ('(S)He's everywhere!"), omnibeneficence (all-good), and omnisoothience (all-true). One can immediately see that the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence cannot simultaneously inhere in a single universe. If a deity were omniscient (knew everything), then it would know the future and thus be powerless to change it, but if it were omnipotent (all-powerful), then it could change the future, and therefore could not know it for certain. It's like the simultaneous impossibility of an irresistable force and an immoveable object; if one of these two deific properties exists (and they are considered to be the most important two), then the other logically cannot. Furthermore, If deity were everywhere, it could perceive nothing, for perception requires a point of view, that is, a spatiotemporal perspective other than that of the perceived object from which to perceive that object. Deity being omnipresent (everywhere), there is nowhere that deity would not be, thus nothing it could perceive. It gets even worse. Deity must be perfect; in fact, perfection is what is broken down into all those 'omni' subcategories. thus, a perfect deity could not even think. Thought is dynamic, that is, to think, one's thought must move between conceptions. Now, thought could conceiveably move in three directions; from perfect to imperfect, from imperfect to perfect, and from imperfect to imperfect (from perfect to perfect is not an alternative, perfection being singular and movement requiring distinguishable prior and posterior). But all of the three possible alternatives contain either prior or posterior imperfection or both, which are not allowably entertained in the mind of a perfect deity.
There's much, much more that I could add, but this should more than suffice to demonstrate that asserting the existence of a deity possessing the attributes that most consider essential to it deserving the deific appelation mires one in a miasmic quagmire of irretrieveable contradiction, once one journeys beyond emotion-driven faith and uses one's noggin to divine (Luvzda pun!) the nonsensical and absurd consequences necessarily entailed.
Neil Lucock wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-02-21 at 12:52, Erik Aronesty wrote: > > Faith is only faith in situations when something isn't known. > Hi, > you make an interesting point. English uses one word when we ought to > have several to exactly define what we mean. > Faith, when it refers to religions, might be described as "irrational > belief in a god or supernatural process despite a lack of verifiable > evidence". > We might also use the word to mean "certainty of belief" in a scientific > sense, such as faith that the sun will apprear in the East the next > morning. This might be called a justifiable faith. > We also have a meaning of "reliable" as in faithful. > All of these definitions overlap to some extent, the problem is that > persons using the word in a religious sense use it to mean a justifiable > faith, without meeting the standard of proof required. IMHO it's nothing > more than inaccurate thinking caused by an inability to reason > correctly. > > >Assuming God is all knowing, he cannot have faith. > Is it logically impossible for God to have faith in an improbable event > occuring? :-) > The idea of omniscience doesn't work.If God knows what you are going to > do and why you are going to do it, what is the point of running Hell? > If there is omniscience, then the amount of information gathered, per > nano-second, would be rather large (all those sub-atomic particles and > what they are doing is information too). God's memory would need to be > many times larger than the number of particles in the universe in order > to contain any useful information about the past, present and furure > states of the universe. How is the information collected? How is it > stored, and where? Finding out about a particle's state alters it > (Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle). God must be able to interact with > matter in order to monitor it, but must have a selective invisibility so > that we can't detect him. > To be honest, you could spend all day writing about the qualities > needed, but you would be making an argument with so many exceptions to > established fact that God ends up with no properties at all. A thing > without properties does not exist (in this universe).You can justify the > existance of Elves or UFOs with the same reasoning, but you don't > actually get any useful information out in the end. > regards, > Neil > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
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Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
Re: virus: Corollary to my prior definition of Trust and Faith
« Reply #10 on: 2004-02-24 18:40:05 »
very sweet, Blunderov..........
Blunderov wrote:
> Dr Sebby > Sent: 23 February 2004 11:31 AM > > ...i dont know if i mentioned this before, but i am "Omnisebby". that > is, > being perfectly sebby. > > by the way, does the bible ever attempt to describe god's qualities or > powers? or do we merely infer them? > > [Blunderov] > Found this Gem at > > http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page55.html > > of which this is the first page. > > Best Regards > > <q> > > Do you follow the Bible word for word? Do you try to follow God's good > example? I read the Bible to see what God was like, and I agree with all > Christian Theists. The Bible is the Word of God, undisputed. I read the > Bible for answers and I got them. I asked the Bible: What is God like? > It told me. > *** > "Well young grasshopper, God. > *** > .cursed, and used to slap animals around!" > Genesis: 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in > his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; > for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will > I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. > *** > .had a bit of a speech problem..." > Isaiah: 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and > will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall > come with speed swiftly. > *** > .pukes a little here and there..." > Revelations: 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold > nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. > *** > .changes his mind now and then... (an indecisive character!)" > Exodus: 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do > unto his people. > *** > .moons folks (just like a good ol' boy!) (The darn straight edge; he's > even is a little shy in the process...)" > Exodus: 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back > parts: but my face shall not be seen. > *** > .talks to the devil just like all the real Satanists..." > Job : 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan > answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and > from walking up and down in it. > *** > .bum rushes angels with folly. (good help is hard to come by, so its > ok)..." > Job : 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he > charged with folly. > *** > .causes adultery (love thy neighbor stuff...)" > 2 Samuel: 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil > against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before > thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy > wives in the sight of this sun. > *** > .causes suicide:" > Jeremiah: 19:7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem > in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their > enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their > carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the > beasts of the earth. > *** > .causes "indecency" (if He can moon, they can streak, right?)" > Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked > naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon > Ethiopia; 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians > prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and > barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. > *** > .tells people to lie." > 1 Samuel: 16:2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will > kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come > to sacrifice to the LORD. > *** > .loves to oppress (but he is a good Capitalist, like Karl Marx)" > Hosea: 12:7 He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he > loveth to oppress. > *** > .rewards transgressors and fools." > Proverbs: 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the > fool, and rewardeth transgressors. > *** > .orders men to drink, be drunk, and vomit (frat-house party animal!)" > Jeremiah: 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD > of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and > fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among > you. > 25:28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to > drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye > shall certainly drink. > *** > .wipes shit on peoples faces:" > Malachi: 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your > faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away > with it. > *** > .Has really bad table manners... (well, he handles shit to spread on > faces, what do you expect?)" > Hosea: 13:8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, > and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like > a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. > *** > .deceives his own prophets" > Jeremiah: 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou > art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every > one mocketh me. > *** > .sought to kill his own emissary" > Exodus: 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD > met him, and sought to kill him. > *** > .sanctions slavery" > Exodus: 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: > and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. > 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were > married, then his wife shall go out with him. > 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or > daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall > go out by himself. > 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, > and my children; I will not go out free: > 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also > bring him to the door, or > unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an > aul; and he shall serve him for ever. > *** > .orders slave-capturing expeditions" > (kill the men, keep the booty!) > Deuteronomy: 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make > war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: 20:13 And when the LORD > thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male > thereof with the edge of the sword: 20:14 But the women, and the little > ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil > thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of > thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. > *** > .orders the slaughter of men, women, and children (a little blood lust > there?)" > 1 Samuel: 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that > they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and > suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. > *** > After killing off the men, keep the virgins around for 'a good time'" > Numbers: 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and > kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. > 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying > with him, keep alive for yourselves. > *** > .poor fella', he can't even trust the truth, so he send delusions to > damn people" > 2 Thessalonians: 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong > delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be > damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. > *** > .has white hair" > DAN 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient > of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his > head like the pure wool: his throne was like the > fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. > *** > .gets tired and needs a rest" > GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; > and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. > *** > .smokes up a little now and then." > PSA 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his > mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. > *** > .has various body parts" > PSA 17:4 Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have > kept me from the paths of the destroyer. > > PSA 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in > heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. > > PSA 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his > mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. > > ISA 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with > his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of > indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire: > > ISA 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the > sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. > > PSA 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the > moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; > > PSA 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly > upon the wings of the wind. > *** > .gambles (fixes the dice and lets his people be distributed that way)" > > PRO 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing > thereof is of the LORD. > > JOS 18:6 Ye shall therefore describe the land into seven parts, and > bring the description hither to me, that I may cast lots for you here > before the LORD our God. > > JOE 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy > for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. > > OBA 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day > that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners > entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, > even thou wast as one of them. > > JON 1:7 And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast > lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they > cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah. > > NAH 3:10 Yet was she carried away, she went into captivity: her young > children also were dashed in pieces at the top of all the streets: and > they cast lots for her honourable men, and all her > great men were bound in chains. > <q> > > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
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