virus: terraforming mars
« on: 2004-01-09 17:51:50 »
Did you guys see this article in Slate?
Is Mars Ours? The logistics and ethics of colonizing the red planet. By David Grinspoon
<snip>
These comments were amplified by panelist Lowell Wood, an architect of Reagan-era "Star Wars" space-based weapons plans. Wood stated confidently that terraforming Mars will happen in the 21st century. "It is the manifest destiny of the human race!" he declared and went on to boast, "In this country we are the builders of new worlds. In this country we took a raw wilderness and turned it into the shining city on the hill of our world." To hell with terraforming: It seemed that we were discussing the Ameriforming of Mars.
I haven't read it but I vote for regime change in Mars! Let's nuke those green goonies back to the stone age!
Seriously: what benefit would it be to us?
I can't see any material benefit, only scientific and intellectual. It cannot effectively and economically be used for anything before both Earth and Moon are mined hollow, and even then it's use would remain questionable.
It makes a great election year show and guarantees support from the techies, I guess. Bush will promise both Mars and Moon to get re-elected, he knows his lines and he will speak the speak that's for sure, but you won't see the money coming or him walking the walk when it's time.
Well, maybe if he get's to be the dictator he wants..
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Michelle Anderson wrote:
> Did you guys see this article in Slate? > > Is Mars Ours? > The logistics and ethics of colonizing the red planet. > By David Grinspoon > > <snip> > > These comments were amplified by panelist Lowell Wood, an architect of > Reagan-era "Star Wars" space-based weapons plans. Wood stated > confidently that terraforming Mars will happen in the 21st century. "It > is the manifest destiny of the human race!" he declared and went on to > boast, "In this country we are the builders of new worlds. In this > country we took a raw wilderness and turned it into the shining city on > the hill of our world." To hell with terraforming: It seemed that we > were discussing the Ameriforming of Mars. > > <snip> > > I'd be fascinated at any discussion... > > Michelle > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #2 on: 2004-01-09 19:05:58 »
I wonder why we haveb't seeded the damn thing already. A solar powered heater, a colony of bacteria sampled from deep-earth cores and from Everest, and ebough food to last a Martian year doled out in cycles that starve off 50 pct of the colony.
Evolution man, they'll find a way of thriving... start the terraforming for us.
RE: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #3 on: 2004-01-10 03:09:21 »
...What the hell!! i claimed mars for my own when i was 7 yrs old!!!
...by the way, after 1243 miles, laura and i have returned home. we got snowed in for the last week more or less. the drive was fine except for some serious ice and snow in portland...which oddly completely vanished one mile south of the city for good. it was really strange. anyhow, i hope everyone is well. i look forward to a more regular participation in the coming future:)
Is Mars Ours? The logistics and ethics of colonizing the red planet. By David Grinspoon
<snip>
These comments were amplified by panelist Lowell Wood, an architect of Reagan-era "Star Wars" space-based weapons plans. Wood stated confidently that terraforming Mars will happen in the 21st century. "It is the manifest destiny of the human race!" he declared and went on to boast, "In this country we are the builders of new worlds. In this country we took a raw wilderness and turned it into the shining city on the hill of our world." To hell with terraforming: It seemed that we were discussing the Ameriforming of Mars.
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #4 on: 2004-01-10 03:11:22 »
...if bush could somehow push some financing towards such a moon venture, i would see it as a much deserved albeit out of place gesture of humanity before he is banished from office.
DrSebby. "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
----Original Message Follows---- From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi> Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com To: virus@lucifer.com Subject: Re: virus: terraforming mars Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:30:50 +0200 (EET)
I haven't read it but I vote for regime change in Mars! Let's nuke those green goonies back to the stone age!
Seriously: what benefit would it be to us?
I can't see any material benefit, only scientific and intellectual. It cannot effectively and economically be used for anything before both Earth and Moon are mined hollow, and even then it's use would remain questionable.
It makes a great election year show and guarantees support from the techies, I guess. Bush will promise both Mars and Moon to get re-elected, he knows his lines and he will speak the speak that's for sure, but you won't see the money coming or him walking the walk when it's time.
Well, maybe if he get's to be the dictator he wants..
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Michelle Anderson wrote:
> Did you guys see this article in Slate? > > Is Mars Ours? > The logistics and ethics of colonizing the red planet. > By David Grinspoon > > <snip> > > These comments were amplified by panelist Lowell Wood, an architect of > Reagan-era "Star Wars" space-based weapons plans. Wood stated > confidently that terraforming Mars will happen in the 21st century. "It > is the manifest destiny of the human race!" he declared and went on to > boast, "In this country we are the builders of new worlds. In this > country we took a raw wilderness and turned it into the shining city on > the hill of our world." To hell with terraforming: It seemed that we > were discussing the Ameriforming of Mars. > > <snip> > > I'd be fascinated at any discussion... > > Michelle > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
...if bush could somehow push some financing towards such a moon venture, i would see it as a much deserved albeit out of place gesture of humanity before he is banished from office.
[Mermaid]you think? here ya go....bush *does* seems to have the idea to colonise the moon...
imo, it seems like yet another election promise..like the one about legalising all hispanic illegal immigrants. but then again, bush might have genuine interest in claiming the moon and the red planet for J.C.
Bush Plans Missions to the Moon, Mars
By MARCIA DUNN, AP Aerospace Writer
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - President Bush (news - web sites) is planning a permanent science base for astronauts on the moon that could serve as a steppingstone for sending humans ultimately on to Mars, according to senior administration officials.
The president wants to aggressively reinvigorate the space program, still reeling from the Columbia tragedy nearly one year ago, said the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity.
White House press secretary Scott McClellan confirmed that Bush would deliver a speech Wednesday describing his vision of the long-term direction of the space program, but he did not reveal what Bush would say.
"The president is strongly committed to the exploration of space," McClellan said Friday.
A major question is how to pay for an expensive space initiative while the nation is struggling with record budget deficits and the high costs of the war against terrorism.
McClellan said that the White House budget office was involved in the administration's space review, and that Bush will "put forth a responsible budget that meets our highest priorities while working to hold the line of spending elsewhere in the budget."
A Nobel-winning physicist who investigated the shuttle accident is among those who would rather see more affordable robots — rather than astronauts — exploring the lunar and Martian surfaces. He points to NASA (news - web sites)'s Spirit rover newly arrived at Mars.
"The cost of a manned enclave on the moon, I think, is going to make the space station look cheap. That's the only good thing about it," said Stanford University's Douglas Osheroff.
In any event, "I think we're still 30 years from going to Mars and if there's any reason to do that, I don't know," Osheroff said.
NASA officials did not return phone calls.
Bush does not intend to propose sending Americans to Mars anytime soon, but instead envisions preparing for a Mars expedition more than a decade from now, one administration official said.
The White House has been looking for a new revitalizing role for NASA for months, with Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) leading the interagency task force since summer. The speculation over a major space initiative began heating up in early December.
Rep. Ralph Hall, R-Texas, a member of the House Science Committee, welcomed the news that Bush would be making an announcement about space.
Hall said he has long been trying to get the president more interested in space exploration. The president never went to Johnson Space Center in Houston while serving as Texas governor; in fact, last February's memorial service for the seven Columbia astronauts was his first visit.
Bush's fresh interest in space happens to coincide with an election year. A new bold space initiative, it is thought, could excite Americans.
"I had the feeling the last 2 1/2 years people would rather make a trip to the grocery store than a trip to the moon because of the economy," Hall said. "As things are turning around, we need to stay in touch with space" and the science spinoffs it provides.
It was the Columbia accident that helped force a discussion of where NASA should venture beyond the three remaining space shuttles and the international space station. The panel that investigated the disaster called for a clearly defined long-term mission — a national vision for space that has been missing for three decades.
Astronauts last walked on the moon in 1972; in all, 12 men tread the lunar surface over a 3 1/2-year period. This time, the president favors a permanent station, administration officials said.
Bush's father, on the 20th anniversary of the first manned moon landing, made a similar call for lunar colonies and a Mars expedition. But the plan was prohibitively expensive — an estimated $400 billion to $500 billion — and went nowhere.
No one knows what the new venture might cost or how NASA would pay for it.
House Science Committee spokeswoman Heidi Tringe said lawmakers on the panel had yet to be briefed on the specifics.
Earlier this week, Bush put in a congratulatory call to officials in charge of NASA's latest Mars rover. He called the Spirit rover's successful landing a "reconfirmation of the American spirit of exploration." Another rover is due to arrive at the red planet in two weeks.
Many space buffs see the moon as a necessary place to test the equipment and techniques that would be needed by astronauts on Mars. It's closer, just three days away versus six months away for the red planet.
Visionaries say observatories could be built on the moon and mining camps could gather helium-3 for conversion into fuel for use back on Earth.
Others, however, contend that astronauts should make a beeline to Mars.
Still others, including John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, believes the nation should complete and fully maximize the international space station before dashing anywhere else.
___
Associated Press writer Scott Lindlaw contributed to this story from Washington.
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #6 on: 2004-01-10 09:47:58 »
I have no reason to trust Bush. Anyone who would put Leon Kass in charge of bioethics is a complete jerk.
He's gathering votes. Bush is the King of Unfunded Misnomer Mandates.
His No Child Left Behind Act has hurt schools and lowered funding, his Help America Vote Act has compromised our elections with easily-corruptable electronic balloting systems.
How fucked will Nasa be if he's allowed to pass some poorly-funded Moon Colonization Act?
Here's my prediction based on my experience with Bush's past legislation.
They will be required to suspend all their regular operations and pursue a 20 year plan that will grow to 80 years due to funding shortages.
No more mars probes, no more smarter, smaller, faster missions. No more AI research for unmanned missions.
Legitimate scientists that disagree with the administration's agenda will be fired.
Technology, as a whole, will be set back many years.
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #7 on: 2004-01-10 17:42:33 »
...oh i agree with you Mermaid; his reasons are never for anyones benefit but his own, but in this time of turmoil any way we can funnel money to NASA is that much less spent on big things that go "boom".
...by the way, why isnt anyone tinkering with a lander that could visit Europa and get underneath that ice. it seems a dead certainty that there would be abundant and i'm guessing rather progressive life forms down there. is it too far away for us to remotely control it or something? what are the difficulties in such a venture?
[quote from: DrSebby on 2004-01-10 at 01:11:22] ...if bush could somehow push some financing towards such a moon venture, i would see it as a much deserved albeit out of place gesture of humanity before he is banished from office.
[Mermaid]you think? here ya go....bush *does* seems to have the idea to colonise the moon...
imo, it seems like yet another election promise..like the one about legalising all hispanic illegal immigrants. but then again, bush might have genuine interest in claiming the moon and the red planet for J.C.
Bush Plans Missions to the Moon, Mars
By MARCIA DUNN, AP Aerospace Writer
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - President Bush (news - web sites) is planning a permanent science base for astronauts on the moon that could serve as a steppingstone for sending humans ultimately on to Mars, according to senior administration officials.
The president wants to aggressively reinvigorate the space program, still reeling from the Columbia tragedy nearly one year ago, said the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity.
White House press secretary Scott McClellan confirmed that Bush would deliver a speech Wednesday describing his vision of the long-term direction of the space program, but he did not reveal what Bush would say.
"The president is strongly committed to the exploration of space," McClellan said Friday.
A major question is how to pay for an expensive space initiative while the nation is struggling with record budget deficits and the high costs of the war against terrorism.
McClellan said that the White House budget office was involved in the administration's space review, and that Bush will "put forth a responsible budget that meets our highest priorities while working to hold the line of spending elsewhere in the budget."
A Nobel-winning physicist who investigated the shuttle accident is among those who would rather see more affordable robots — rather than astronauts — exploring the lunar and Martian surfaces. He points to NASA (news - web sites)'s Spirit rover newly arrived at Mars.
"The cost of a manned enclave on the moon, I think, is going to make the space station look cheap. That's the only good thing about it," said Stanford University's Douglas Osheroff.
In any event, "I think we're still 30 years from going to Mars and if there's any reason to do that, I don't know," Osheroff said.
NASA officials did not return phone calls.
Bush does not intend to propose sending Americans to Mars anytime soon, but instead envisions preparing for a Mars expedition more than a decade from now, one administration official said.
The White House has been looking for a new revitalizing role for NASA for months, with Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) leading the interagency task force since summer. The speculation over a major space initiative began heating up in early December.
Rep. Ralph Hall, R-Texas, a member of the House Science Committee, welcomed the news that Bush would be making an announcement about space.
Hall said he has long been trying to get the president more interested in space exploration. The president never went to Johnson Space Center in Houston while serving as Texas governor; in fact, last February's memorial service for the seven Columbia astronauts was his first visit.
Bush's fresh interest in space happens to coincide with an election year. A new bold space initiative, it is thought, could excite Americans.
"I had the feeling the last 2 1/2 years people would rather make a trip to the grocery store than a trip to the moon because of the economy," Hall said. "As things are turning around, we need to stay in touch with space" and the science spinoffs it provides.
It was the Columbia accident that helped force a discussion of where NASA should venture beyond the three remaining space shuttles and the international space station. The panel that investigated the disaster called for a clearly defined long-term mission — a national vision for space that has been missing for three decades.
Astronauts last walked on the moon in 1972; in all, 12 men tread the lunar surface over a 3 1/2-year period. This time, the president favors a permanent station, administration officials said.
Bush's father, on the 20th anniversary of the first manned moon landing, made a similar call for lunar colonies and a Mars expedition. But the plan was prohibitively expensive — an estimated $400 billion to $500 billion — and went nowhere.
No one knows what the new venture might cost or how NASA would pay for it.
House Science Committee spokeswoman Heidi Tringe said lawmakers on the panel had yet to be briefed on the specifics.
Earlier this week, Bush put in a congratulatory call to officials in charge of NASA's latest Mars rover. He called the Spirit rover's successful landing a "reconfirmation of the American spirit of exploration." Another rover is due to arrive at the red planet in two weeks.
Many space buffs see the moon as a necessary place to test the equipment and techniques that would be needed by astronauts on Mars. It's closer, just three days away versus six months away for the red planet.
Visionaries say observatories could be built on the moon and mining camps could gather helium-3 for conversion into fuel for use back on Earth.
Others, however, contend that astronauts should make a beeline to Mars.
Still others, including John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, believes the nation should complete and fully maximize the international space station before dashing anywhere else.
___
Associated Press writer Scott Lindlaw contributed to this story from Washington.
> I wonder why we haveb't seeded the damn thing already. A solar powered > heater, a colony of bacteria sampled from deep-earth cores and from > Everest, and ebough food to last a Martian year doled out in cycles that > starve off 50 pct of the colony. > > Evolution man, they'll find a way of thriving... start the terraforming > for us.
Efficient communication (of nutrids, movement of bacteria, etc) is key to evolution, and that implies a fluid or a liquid base that enables bacteria to swim around and multiply. Mars is pretty dry or too cold for liquid water.
IMHO, if it could be terraformed, it would have terraformed already.
Now, Jupiter's moon Europa, that one harbors big hopes of some form of life in it's deep waters.
I seriously doubt that we will ever learn to communicate with it though, or just about as much as we can with whales or dolphins.
I don't think undersea life would develop technological structures similar to ours. If it really needed the tools, life in our seas would have developed them already millions of years ago. Dolphins are plenty smart. In undersea life, primitive tools just aren't a benefit for survival and food gathering, or evolution. What tools, spikes and scissors or senses you have/need, you have by nature and evolution.
And high tech equipment just doesn't pop up by itself.
Well, let's hope so, but I haven't read anywhere that his promises would have actually been worth much anything. Ref: the aids programs in Africa, etc.. he promised billions with a big media show, and the works. He didn't really give 'em anything, or just gave them some peanuts. It's more of a pattern with everything he's done, and I think this Mars and Moon thing is the same. Unless somebody proves they're filled with pure refined oil and figures how we can ship it to Earth at competitive prices, we're not really going to see much anything happening.
And I don't think he's going to be banished from the office. The new digital voting system sees to it, if nothing else will. All bet's are in his favor, and I for one bet that he's going to be around and leading U.S. much longer than many of us think.
I'll post a separate e-mail titled "paranoid shift" that pretty much explains why this is so. ;-)
// Jei
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Dr Sebby wrote:
> ...if bush could somehow push some financing towards such a moon venture, i > would see it as a much deserved albeit out of place gesture of humanity > before he is banished from office. > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards". > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Jei <jei@cc.hut.fi> > Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: Re: virus: terraforming mars > Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:30:50 +0200 (EET) > > I haven't read it but I vote for regime change in Mars! > Let's nuke those green goonies back to the stone age! > > Seriously: what benefit would it be to us? > > I can't see any material benefit, only scientific and > intellectual. It cannot effectively and economically > be used for anything before both Earth and Moon are > mined hollow, and even then it's use would remain questionable. > > It makes a great election year show and guarantees > support from the techies, I guess. Bush will promise > both Mars and Moon to get re-elected, he knows his > lines and he will speak the speak that's for sure, > but you won't see the money coming or him walking the > walk when it's time. > > Well, maybe if he get's to be the dictator he wants.. > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Michelle Anderson wrote: > > > Did you guys see this article in Slate? > > > > Is Mars Ours? > > The logistics and ethics of colonizing the red planet. > > By David Grinspoon > > > > <snip> > > > > These comments were amplified by panelist Lowell Wood, an architect of > > Reagan-era "Star Wars" space-based weapons plans. Wood stated > > confidently that terraforming Mars will happen in the 21st century. "It > > is the manifest destiny of the human race!" he declared and went on to > > boast, "In this country we are the builders of new worlds. In this > > country we took a raw wilderness and turned it into the shining city on > > the hill of our world." To hell with terraforming: It seemed that we > > were discussing the Ameriforming of Mars. > > > > <snip> > > > > I'd be fascinated at any discussion... > > > > Michelle > > > > > > --- > > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> ...oh i agree with you Mermaid; his reasons are never for anyones benefit > but his own, but in this time of turmoil any way we can funnel money to NASA > is that much less spent on big things that go "boom". > > ...by the way, why isnt anyone tinkering with a lander that could visit > Europa and get underneath that ice. it seems a dead certainty that there > would be abundant and i'm guessing rather progressive life forms down there. > is it too far away for us to remotely control it or something? what are > the difficulties in such a venture? > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards".
I agree, NASA money would be money well spent.
Europa expedition would be the most interesting expedition we could undertake, apart from Venus, perhaps. Venus has a thick atmosphere, and undoubtedly plenty of substances in form of liquids -> strong possibilities of life, imho. ...But I also think that a moon, or something that brings "catastrophies" in the form of regular tidal waves to primitive creatures living in liquids is essential for life to have moved from seas to Earth (advantage through survival -> evolution). -> Europa has the bigger chance of intelligent life, but lack of atmosphere probably has eliminated all chance for surface life on Europa..
...
I think the challenge is in efficient fool-proof communications, and perhaps the fact that the recent Mars probes have been embarrassingly falling flat on the planet due to various errors. Europa is a *lot* more farther away and mistakes like these, they don't really give a lot of confidence in the people doing this stuff...
Smashing probes on planets is just ... questionable. Errors just shouldn't happen at this stage.. (lack of sufficient testing?)
Undersea communications with a remote probe boring and diving under an ice bed is, to my understanding, also a "bit" difficult. Or at the least doing it cheaply on a remote planet is.
We don't have remote control submarines even now. They do communicate with sonar, or using radio buoys, I understand, but doing the same on a remote planet that is covered by an ice-sheet...
We would need to develop pretty much an independent system that comes back to the surface and reports back when it can. Much closer to 100% sure in it's operation than all these failed Mars probes, I should hope..
Nuclear powered, heats up and melts the ice, dives, records data, takes pictures, does analysis and reports back (the most challenging part). Perhaps a surface-station that drops a sonar under the (miles?) thick ice and an independent submarine unit that communicates via the sonar. Also the sea might be noisy, since there's lots of volcanic activity, and afaik, sonar isn't that efficient (or reliable?) for communications... might be strong currents too... submarine unit might get lost... (should attempt to return to surface somehow for radio communications and bearings..) The orbiter would connect to surface unit with radio that would use a buoy (a few miles of cable? = expensive to bring along and might be easily cut by ice-movements...) to link to sonar that would communicate to submarine probe (if in "hearing range" == *lots* of things and communication links that can fail and go easily wrong and hard to make 100% fool-proof. (How well does radio traffic go through the "ice" that is on Europa? Is it of water or was it liquid nitrogen or something else?) Also as Europa does not have an atmosphere, the probe would have to land using rockets, unlike the recent Mars probes, slowing down with parachutes and balloons and just bumping into the planet..
Perhaps when we can launch a remote probe to Antarctica, and have it autonomously investigate it's lakes under the few miles of ice, and have it return and report successfully via radio to us with pictures of the bottom, we should consider sending something to Europa...
The first real problems seem to be with the landings that haven't exactly gone according to plans recently, and the communication with explorr craft under "unknown" sea in more or less unknown conditions. The chemical composition of Europa's "sea" might affect and radio sonar/radio..
Venus, on the other hand is rather a hot environment for our current technology. Europa might be less challenging for now.
Anyway, last best attempts by humanity haven't been 100% successful, sadly. It seems underestimations and carelesness take their toll, and not everything has really been "state of the art", but rather "public domain" cheap as can get, stuff... Military should get more into the business, they have a reputation of delivering consistent reliability.
Perhaps NASA/ESA should make it easy to get public donations for specific probe projects. Or do they already?
Anyway, Micro- and nano-scale machines should perhaps provide redundancy and efficiency in the future (in key parts) to accomplish the tasks for these probes cheaply. The key point, or lesson from past I would say, is fool-proof guaranteed successful operation, or as close as possible. Better less data reliably than a bigger chance of no data at all.
Imho, there has been far too many annoyingly stupid mistakes and disappointments during recent years.
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #11 on: 2004-01-11 00:43:34 »
Clearly there is water at the poles. Some bacteria need very little water. If we proliferated seed lifeforms, they would help build up a martian atmosphere.
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #12 on: 2004-01-11 02:14:26 »
...what sort of plants could thrive in that sort of cold and radiation exposure sufficient to generate an atmosphere? it would take so long that technological advances down the road would massively outpace the intent of such a project.
Clearly there is water at the poles. Some bacteria need very little water. If we proliferated seed lifeforms, they would help build up a martian atmosphere.
Just when I thought I was out-they pull me back in
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #13 on: 2004-01-11 18:11:06 »
We can't afford to terraform Mars.
We've spent all our money terraforming Iraq.
Yaba daba do.
Remember, like the fellow said of the universe:
Muslims are not weirder than we imagine. They're weirder than we CAN imagine.
Walter <cowering from the thought of tampon burka bombs>
Dr Sebby wrote:
> ...oh i agree with you Mermaid; his reasons are never for anyones benefit > but his own, but in this time of turmoil any way we can funnel money to NASA > is that much less spent on big things that go "boom". > > ...by the way, why isnt anyone tinkering with a lander that could visit > Europa and get underneath that ice. it seems a dead certainty that there > would be abundant and i'm guessing rather progressive life forms down there. > is it too far away for us to remotely control it or something? what are > the difficulties in such a venture? > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards". > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Mermaid" <hidden@lucifer.com> > Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: Re: virus: terraforming mars > Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:39:09 -0700 > > [quote from: DrSebby on 2004-01-10 at 01:11:22] > ...if bush could somehow push some financing towards such a moon venture, i > would see it as a much deserved albeit out of place gesture of humanity > before he is banished from office. > > [Mermaid]you think? here ya go....bush *does* seems to have the idea to > colonise the moon... > > imo, it seems like yet another election promise..like the one about > legalising all hispanic illegal immigrants. but then again, bush might have > genuine interest in claiming the moon and the red planet for J.C. > > Bush Plans Missions to the Moon, Mars > > By MARCIA DUNN, AP Aerospace Writer > > CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - President Bush (news - web sites) is planning a > permanent science base for astronauts on the moon that could serve as a > steppingstone for sending humans ultimately on to Mars, according to senior > administration officials. > > The president wants to aggressively reinvigorate the space program, still > reeling from the Columbia tragedy nearly one year ago, said the officials, > speaking on condition of anonymity. > > White House press secretary Scott McClellan confirmed that Bush would > deliver a speech Wednesday describing his vision of the long-term direction > of the space program, but he did not reveal what Bush would say. > > "The president is strongly committed to the exploration of space," McClellan > said Friday. > > A major question is how to pay for an expensive space initiative while the > nation is struggling with record budget deficits and the high costs of the > war against terrorism. > > McClellan said that the White House budget office was involved in the > administration's space review, and that Bush will "put forth a responsible > budget that meets our highest priorities while working to hold the line of > spending elsewhere in the budget." > > A Nobel-winning physicist who investigated the shuttle accident is among > those who would rather see more affordable robots — rather than astronauts — > exploring the lunar and Martian surfaces. He points to NASA (news - web > sites)'s Spirit rover newly arrived at Mars. > > "The cost of a manned enclave on the moon, I think, is going to make the > space station look cheap. That's the only good thing about it," said > Stanford University's Douglas Osheroff. > > In any event, "I think we're still 30 years from going to Mars and if > there's any reason to do that, I don't know," Osheroff said. > > NASA officials did not return phone calls. > > Bush does not intend to propose sending Americans to Mars anytime soon, but > instead envisions preparing for a Mars expedition more than a decade from > now, one administration official said. > > The White House has been looking for a new revitalizing role for NASA for > months, with Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) leading the > interagency task force since summer. The speculation over a major space > initiative began heating up in early December. > > Rep. Ralph Hall, R-Texas, a member of the House Science Committee, welcomed > the news that Bush would be making an announcement about space. > > Hall said he has long been trying to get the president more interested in > space exploration. The president never went to Johnson Space Center in > Houston while serving as Texas governor; in fact, last February's memorial > service for the seven Columbia astronauts was his first visit. > > Bush's fresh interest in space happens to coincide with an election year. A > new bold space initiative, it is thought, could excite Americans. > > "I had the feeling the last 2 1/2 years people would rather make a trip to > the grocery store than a trip to the moon because of the economy," Hall > said. "As things are turning around, we need to stay in touch with space" > and the science spinoffs it provides. > > It was the Columbia accident that helped force a discussion of where NASA > should venture beyond the three remaining space shuttles and the > international space station. The panel that investigated the disaster called > for a clearly defined long-term mission — a national vision for space that > has been missing for three decades. > > Astronauts last walked on the moon in 1972; in all, 12 men tread the lunar > surface over a 3 1/2-year period. This time, the president favors a > permanent station, administration officials said. > > Bush's father, on the 20th anniversary of the first manned moon landing, > made a similar call for lunar colonies and a Mars expedition. But the plan > was prohibitively expensive — an estimated $400 billion to $500 billion — > and went nowhere. > > No one knows what the new venture might cost or how NASA would pay for it. > > House Science Committee spokeswoman Heidi Tringe said lawmakers on the panel > had yet to be briefed on the specifics. > > Earlier this week, Bush put in a congratulatory call to officials in charge > of NASA's latest Mars rover. He called the Spirit rover's successful landing > a "reconfirmation of the American spirit of exploration." Another rover is > due to arrive at the red planet in two weeks. > > Many space buffs see the moon as a necessary place to test the equipment and > techniques that would be needed by astronauts on Mars. It's closer, just > three days away versus six months away for the red planet. > > Visionaries say observatories could be built on the moon and mining camps > could gather helium-3 for conversion into fuel for use back on Earth. > > Others, however, contend that astronauts should make a beeline to Mars. > > Still others, including John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, > believes the nation should complete and fully maximize the international > space station before dashing anywhere else. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Scott Lindlaw contributed to this story from > Washington. > > link: > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040109/ap_on_go_pr_wh/back_to_the_moon_4 > > ---- > This message was posted by Mermaid to the Virus 2004 board on Church of > Virus BBS. > <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=29838> > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
Re: virus: terraforming mars
« Reply #14 on: 2004-01-11 18:30:03 »
...hiya walt old boy say, has anyone noticed that any time footage is shown of young muslims studying the koran, they always seem to be bobbing their heads violently back and forth whilst reciting or reading from it? does this sort of early childhood brain bruising help the indoctrination process? or is it just the media slanting things by showing only the "head bobbing" study method so as to suggest an underlying core of nuttiness?
Muslims are not weirder than we imagine. They're weirder than we CAN imagine.
Walter <cowering from the thought of tampon burka bombs>
Dr Sebby wrote:
> ...oh i agree with you Mermaid; his reasons are never for anyones benefit > but his own, but in this time of turmoil any way we can funnel money to NASA > is that much less spent on big things that go "boom". > > ...by the way, why isnt anyone tinkering with a lander that could visit > Europa and get underneath that ice. it seems a dead certainty that there > would be abundant and i'm guessing rather progressive life forms down there. > is it too far away for us to remotely control it or something? what are > the difficulties in such a venture? > > DrSebby. > "Courage...and shuffle the cards". > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Mermaid" <hidden@lucifer.com> > Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: Re: virus: terraforming mars > Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:39:09 -0700 > > [quote from: DrSebby on 2004-01-10 at 01:11:22] > ...if bush could somehow push some financing towards such a moon venture, i > would see it as a much deserved albeit out of place gesture of humanity > before he is banished from office. > > [Mermaid]you think? here ya go....bush *does* seems to have the idea to > colonise the moon... > > imo, it seems like yet another election promise..like the one about > legalising all hispanic illegal immigrants. but then again, bush might have > genuine interest in claiming the moon and the red planet for J.C. > > Bush Plans Missions to the Moon, Mars > > By MARCIA DUNN, AP Aerospace Writer > > CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - President Bush (news - web sites) is planning a > permanent science base for astronauts on the moon that could serve as a > steppingstone for sending humans ultimately on to Mars, according to senior > administration officials. > > The president wants to aggressively reinvigorate the space program, still > reeling from the Columbia tragedy nearly one year ago, said the officials, > speaking on condition of anonymity. > > White House press secretary Scott McClellan confirmed that Bush would > deliver a speech Wednesday describing his vision of the long-term direction > of the space program, but he did not reveal what Bush would say. > > "The president is strongly committed to the exploration of space," McClellan > said Friday. > > A major question is how to pay for an expensive space initiative while the > nation is struggling with record budget deficits and the high costs of the > war against terrorism. > > McClellan said that the White House budget office was involved in the > administration's space review, and that Bush will "put forth a responsible > budget that meets our highest priorities while working to hold the line of > spending elsewhere in the budget." > > A Nobel-winning physicist who investigated the shuttle accident is among > those who would rather see more affordable robots — rather than astronauts — > exploring the lunar and Martian surfaces. He points to NASA (news - web > sites)'s Spirit rover newly arrived at Mars. > > "The cost of a manned enclave on the moon, I think, is going to make the > space station look cheap. That's the only good thing about it," said > Stanford University's Douglas Osheroff. > > In any event, "I think we're still 30 years from going to Mars and if > there's any reason to do that, I don't know," Osheroff said. > > NASA officials did not return phone calls. > > Bush does not intend to propose sending Americans to Mars anytime soon, but > instead envisions preparing for a Mars expedition more than a decade from > now, one administration official said. > > The White House has been looking for a new revitalizing role for NASA for > months, with Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) leading the > interagency task force since summer. The speculation over a major space > initiative began heating up in early December. > > Rep. Ralph Hall, R-Texas, a member of the House Science Committee, welcomed > the news that Bush would be making an announcement about space. > > Hall said he has long been trying to get the president more interested in > space exploration. The president never went to Johnson Space Center in > Houston while serving as Texas governor; in fact, last February's memorial > service for the seven Columbia astronauts was his first visit. > > Bush's fresh interest in space happens to coincide with an election year. A > new bold space initiative, it is thought, could excite Americans. > > "I had the feeling the last 2 1/2 years people would rather make a trip to > the grocery store than a trip to the moon because of the economy," Hall > said. "As things are turning around, we need to stay in touch with space" > and the science spinoffs it provides. > > It was the Columbia accident that helped force a discussion of where NASA > should venture beyond the three remaining space shuttles and the > international space station. The panel that investigated the disaster called > for a clearly defined long-term mission — a national vision for space that > has been missing for three decades. > > Astronauts last walked on the moon in 1972; in all, 12 men tread the lunar > surface over a 3 1/2-year period. This time, the president favors a > permanent station, administration officials said. > > Bush's father, on the 20th anniversary of the first manned moon landing, > made a similar call for lunar colonies and a Mars expedition. But the plan > was prohibitively expensive — an estimated $400 billion to $500 billion — > and went nowhere. > > No one knows what the new venture might cost or how NASA would pay for it. > > House Science Committee spokeswoman Heidi Tringe said lawmakers on the panel > had yet to be briefed on the specifics. > > Earlier this week, Bush put in a congratulatory call to officials in charge > of NASA's latest Mars rover. He called the Spirit rover's successful landing > a "reconfirmation of the American spirit of exploration." Another rover is > due to arrive at the red planet in two weeks. > > Many space buffs see the moon as a necessary place to test the equipment and > techniques that would be needed by astronauts on Mars. It's closer, just > three days away versus six months away for the red planet. > > Visionaries say observatories could be built on the moon and mining camps > could gather helium-3 for conversion into fuel for use back on Earth. > > Others, however, contend that astronauts should make a beeline to Mars. > > Still others, including John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, > believes the nation should complete and fully maximize the international > space station before dashing anywhere else. > > ___ > > Associated Press writer Scott Lindlaw contributed to this story from > Washington. > > link: > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040109/ap_on_go_pr_wh/back_to_the_moon_4 > > ---- > This message was posted by Mermaid to the Virus 2004 board on Church of > Virus BBS. > <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=61;action=display;threadid=29838> > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
Author
Logged
i claimed mars for my own when i was 7 yrs old!!!
say, has anyone noticed that any time footage is 
