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Topic: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list) (Read 1713 times) |
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virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« on: 2003-12-13 23:37:09 » |
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Ted Dace makes the comment that memetics is not making progress as a study.
That's both true and not true. If you look into anthropology, sociology,
ecology and psychology department listings memetics gets covered in a lot
of upper division university courses.
Ted's right though that memetic engineering is not taught, or rather it
*is* taught as an empirical subject with poor or no scientific base in
courses such as public relations and advertising.
This state of affairs is not unprecedented. Animal and plant breeding was
a subject in agriculture schools for at least a hundred years before the
genetic basis of breeding was understood. It was 4-5 decades after Watson
and Crick before plant and animal breeding programs became "genetic
engineering."
Now the practitioners are able to use the scientific knowledge about DNA
and a mess of tools developed for science to splice in the genes they
want. Even at that, the majority of animal and plant breeding was done
before people understood what they were doing all the way down to base pairs.
By analogy, most of what is known about influencing people (via memes)
comes from pre memetics days. I think a strong case can be made that any
powerful leader(ship) has the same kind of gut feel about what they are
doing that a breeder did about what *he* was doing a hundred years ago.
The whole URL at http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm is worth
reading. Here is the last part. It provides an interesting historical
example of a "pre memetic" meme breeder.
*********************
The quote offered above was part of a conversation Gilbert held with a
dejected Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946, as
the trials were halted for a three-day Easter recess:"
snip
Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the
common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars
by their political leaders:
We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his
attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for
leaders who bring them war and destruction.
"Why, of course, the *people* don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would
some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in
America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all, it is the *leaders* of the country who determine the policy and it is
always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy
or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."
"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have
some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars."
"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
way in any country."
******************
I want to correct Goering observations in two respects. First, leaders and
population alike are responding to preconditions to wars, primarily a
substantial period of looming or actual decline in per capita
income. Human genes were selected for well over a million years for
analogies of this condition to induce warfare between neighboring tribes
(via increased circulation of xenophobic memes). From the gene's viewpoint
the common outcomes of wars between small tribes are better than starvation
for winners *and* losers.
Second, a population without looming privation is almost impossible to get
to support a war, *unless* they have been attacked. The leadership of the
US, particularly FDR, wanted the country to enter the war against Germany
for years but did not have the support for it until Pearl Harbor.
This too comes directly out of obvious evolutionary psychology/gene
selection models. It might be noted in analogy to more recent events that
the US didn't put maximum effort into Japan first, but went after Japan's
ally Germany. (I.e., once you have an attacked people supporting a war,
minimal manipulation can get their support to fight anyone.)
Both of these EP based mechanisms on who starts wars and who fights back
should be subject to verification in the historical record.
Keith Henson
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simul
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Re: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #1 on: 2003-12-14 01:21:01 » |
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There is at least one comany I know of that offers a comprehensive course in memetic engineering. It's called the "Self-Expression and Leadership Program" offered by www.landmarkeducation.com
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #3 on: 2003-12-14 15:30:55 » |
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I've done it. It's interesting. It's like a crash-course in Kant/Neitche/Wittgenstein.
The interesting part is the recursive nature of it.
They're training you in memetic engineering technology while using it on you to train you in it.
The trick is to remember that you can use the same techniques to, say, promote transhumanism. Or in you case, COV.
I promoted transhumanism in New York, using some of their tech. You can see how much more successful I've been in spreading the meme just by comparing the membership numbers. I haven't been fully committed, but I've had some degree of success.
http://transhumanism.meetup.com
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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michelle
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RE: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #4 on: 2003-12-15 12:10:41 » |
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[Lucifer] The Landmark Forum human potential cult has its origins in
Scientology and est.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=landmark+forum+cult
Do you know anyone that was recruited?
[Michelle] They tried to get me once, when I had graduated high school
and maintained contacts with a dear mentor and teacher. She brought me
to a forum, paid for it, and wanted to talk about it with me. Luckily
my ex-wife was suspicious and I dropped the whole thing to avoid
conflict before I'd even finished the three-day forum.
The whole thing was well-engineered for an average person to suddenly
find out how brilliant they are and "unlock their inner potential" and,
much like the early stages of Scientology, seemed harmless enough for
all that. But I could see the implications of a money-vacuum and a
cultish ubertogetherness, and by the third day of the forum I thought it
was overly aggressive in the sell and just felt uncomfortable.
But as Erik said, the methods were my first introduction to such
techniques and it was quite interesting. I would rather have been a fly
on the wall than have been there, being stared at, however.
MIchelle
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Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.
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JD
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RE: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #5 on: 2003-12-15 13:07:20 » |
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A friend dragged me to one of the taster sessions. It was a lesson in
coercive persuasion. Needless to say I declined to continue the "course".
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Michelle Anderson
Sent: 15 December 2003 17:11
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: RE: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
[Lucifer] The Landmark Forum human potential cult has its origins in
Scientology and est.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=landmark+forum+cult
Do you know anyone that was recruited?
[Michelle] They tried to get me once, when I had graduated high school and
maintained contacts with a dear mentor and teacher. She brought me to a
forum, paid for it, and wanted to talk about it with me. Luckily my ex-wife
was suspicious and I dropped the whole thing to avoid conflict before I'd
even finished the three-day forum.
The whole thing was well-engineered for an average person to suddenly find
out how brilliant they are and "unlock their inner potential" and, much like
the early stages of Scientology, seemed harmless enough for all that. But I
could see the implications of a money-vacuum and a cultish ubertogetherness,
and by the third day of the forum I thought it was overly aggressive in the
sell and just felt uncomfortable.
But as Erik said, the methods were my first introduction to such techniques
and it was quite interesting. I would rather have been a fly on the wall
than have been there, being stared at, however.
MIchelle
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simul
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Re: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #6 on: 2003-12-15 13:59:38 » |
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Well then, it didn't work very well, did it. No need to take a course in memetic propagation from someone who isn't convincing!
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Casey
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Re:virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #7 on: 2003-12-15 14:54:02 » |
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Funny you should mention the Landmark Forum.
My sister went to a 3 day session - inviting me on the last session date. This is common practice at Landmark Forums. An attendee registers for a 3 day session, then on the 2nd day, the moderators ask the attendents to invite someone they know who may benefit from the program. My sister invited me. I attended her 3rd day and, subsequently, signed up for a 3 day session of my own.
I went to the session. But, I found myself not impressed. I can't say if it resembles
the Church of Scientology in it's methods since I've never been to a CoS meeting. But, I decided against attending the 2nd and 3rd days.
After not attending the 2nd session I received a telephone call from the Landmark Forum asking why I hadn't attended on the 2nd day. I told them my reason - which was I didn't feel it addressed anything that was of substantial importance to me. Then, they called my sister who then called me and asked me the same question. I told her the same answer as I told them.
Soon thereafter, she came to the same conclusion that I did; that the Landmark Forums are no better than other methods of figuring out what it is you want out of life and your interpersonal relationships with others.
Kind regards,
Casey
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simul
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Re: virus: Memetic engineers (xposted from memetics list)
« Reply #8 on: 2003-12-15 22:17:27 » |
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A totally reasonable assessment.
Some people are more "into it" than others.
A friend of mine, Sara, thinks it's the most exciting thing that she's ever done and constantly invites me to take more classes.
Maybe it's like the article I read on drug targets. 90% of the drugs only work on 30-50% of the people. Perhaps the same holds for memes...
I think it's fun and interesting.
For some perspective on that statement, I also think New Scientist magazine is fun and interesting...as is COV.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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