Gleaned from a friend's online blog thingy <snip> Sixty-five years ago on this day in 1938, the Federal Minimum Wage went into effect—at .25˘ an hour. Now it's $5.15 an hour.
After adjusting for inflation, that's 21% lower than in 1979.
Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #1 on: 2003-10-24 14:08:46 »
[Mermaid] Sixty-five years ago on this day in 1938, the Federal Minimum Wage went into effect—at .25˘ an hour. Now it's $5.15 an hour.
After adjusting for inflation, that's 21% lower than in 1979.
[Lucifer] Minimum wage is one of those policies that was created with good intentions but the results are undesirable. Minimum wage should be abolished.
Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #2 on: 2003-10-24 16:08:16 »
[Mermaid] Sixty-five years ago on this day in 1938, the Federal Minimum Wage went into effect—at .25˘ an hour. Now it's $5.15 an hour.
After adjusting for inflation, that's 21% lower than in 1979.
[rhinoceros] Interesting... I wonder how many people, in numbers and in percentage, get minimum wage today.
[Lucifer] Minimum wage is one of those policies that was created with good intentions but the results are undesirable. Minimum wage should be abolished.
[rhinoceros] Heh, just a thought. Shouldn't prices of goods be abolished too? They also seem so inflexible... We could go back to good old haggling to see which industries can deliver cheaper.
It's NOT a "living" wage by ANY stretch of the definition.
The "American Dream" and U.S. style capitalism is fucking broken when compared with northern European style socialism/capitalism.
As a pharmacist whose numbers are in short supply and who can't complain about the wage aspect of my job, I really can't get too worked up about it.
However, for anyone actually making any where near the sub-standard minimum, some pro-labor, pro-union, leg-breaking, ball-busting tactics should be employed against the NAFTA-luvin, republican, ass-wipe mother fuckers that put you in that dismal statistic.
Call an overpaid CEO that moved his company to Malaysia from a phone booth tonight and threaten his and his family's life.
Otherwise, don't complain. Big labor and violence is the only thing that's gonna help ya in the U.S.A. these days. It's the only thing that worked in the past.
And by the way, here's a refresher course on economic globalization: -------------------------------
Chemistry I
Two large glass beakers, with a tube running between them at the bottom and a flow valve in the tube.
One beaker has sodium chloride in water, say 30% (saturation at 20 celsius is 36%)
The other beaker has, say 5% sodium chloride in water.
Any idea what happens when you open the valve?
Money Supply = Sodium Chloride
Walter
Mermaid wrote:
> Gleaned from a friend's online blog thingy > <snip> > Sixty-five years ago on this day in 1938, the Federal Minimum Wage went into effect—at .25˘ an hour. Now it's $5.15 an hour. > > After adjusting for inflation, that's 21% lower than in 1979. > > [...] > > Thoughts? > > ---- > This message was posted by Mermaid to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus BBS. > <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29592> > --- > To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
--
Walter Watts Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed or neutered."
>From: "David Lucifer" <david@lucifer.com> >Reply-To: virus@lucifer.com >To: virus@lucifer.com >Subject: virus: Re:Minimum wage >Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:08:47 -0600 > >[Mermaid] Sixty-five years ago on this day in 1938, the Federal Minimum >Wage went into effect—at .25˘ an hour. Now it's $5.15 an hour. > >After adjusting for inflation, that's 21% lower than in 1979. > >[Lucifer] Minimum wage is one of those policies that was created with good >intentions but the results are undesirable. Minimum wage should be >abolished. > [Lhyr of Chaos] if there were no min. wage limit, there would be people working for spare pocket change. i know of several industries which would happily only pay 0.25 cents an hour, or per day. for that matter, more industries would spring up which would be renting squares of sidewalk to sleep on. while we're at it, why don't we abolish child labor laws so kids can go to work whenever they want to. > >---- >This message was posted by David Lucifer to the Virus 2003 board on Church >of Virus BBS. ><http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29592> >--- >To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to ><http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
_________________________________________________________________ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
what's coming through is alive, what's holding up is a mirror... totally void of hate, and killing me just the same... coming over like a storm again now considerately.
> [Lhyr of Chaos] if there were no min. wage limit, there would be people > working for spare pocket change. i know of several industries which would > happily only pay 0.25 cents an hour, or per day.
Well yes, the minimum wage should be set at zero, otherwise it would slip right into the negatives and you would have a whole new class of impoverished workers paying their employers for the privilege of slaving away in increasingly dangerous and squalid settings. The horror! --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> -----Original Message----- > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf > Of David McFadzean > Sent: 25 October 2003 0934 > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: Re: virus: Re:Minimum wage > > > [Lhyr of Chaos] if there were no min. wage limit, there would be people > > working for spare pocket change. i know of several industries which > would > > happily only pay 0.25 cents an hour, or per day. > > Well yes, the minimum wage should be set at zero, otherwise it would > slip right into the negatives and you would have a whole new class > of impoverished workers paying their employers for the privilege > of slaving away in increasingly dangerous and squalid settings. > The horror! [Blunderov] I am interested in your surprising, to me, assertion that the minimum wage is not a good idea. Would you mind elaborating? (I must confess I don't at all know what the original purpose of the legislation was.)
Am I mistaken in assuming that it was to guarantee a minimum standard of living for those fortunate enough to be employed?
Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #8 on: 2003-10-25 16:28:50 »
[Blunderov] I am interested in your surprising, to me, assertion that the minimum wage is not a good idea. Would you mind elaborating? (I must confess I don't at all know what the original purpose of the legislation was.)
Am I mistaken in assuming that it was to guarantee a minimum standard of living for those fortunate enough to be employed?
[Lucifer] I think that was the intention. Nice idea, but the policy is fatally flawed.
In general, buyers want to minimize the price they pay for goods or services while sellers want to maximize the price they can get for same. This is true in labour markets as well. The price should be agreed upon by both sides of the contract, not a 3rd party such as the gov't.
The minimum wage does not raise the wage of those workers who for whatever reason would sell their labour at less then minimum wage, it just puts them out of work. Employers won't magically come up with the money to pay more than they think a position is worth, they just do without or load the work on to other people. Everyone involved is worse off than they would be if they were allowed to agree on a wage.
Imposing a minimum wage makes about as much sense as making it illegal to volunteer.
Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #9 on: 2003-10-25 18:20:11 »
I've got about 30 seconds to write this so it'll be short.
I totally agree with Lucifer's position on this question: Minimum wages is a harmful policy. Those looking for additional support might want to read this chapter in Mises' Human Action treatease: http://www.mises.org/humanaction/chap30sec3.asp
> -----Original Message----- > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf > Of David Lucifer > Sent: 25 October 2003 2229 > To: virus@lucifer.com > Subject: virus: Re:Minimum wage > > > [Blunderov] I am interested in your surprising, to me, assertion that the > minimum > wage is not a good idea. Would you mind elaborating? (I must confess I > don't at all know what the original purpose of the legislation was.) > > Am I mistaken in assuming that it was to guarantee a minimum standard of > living for those fortunate enough to be employed? > > [Lucifer] I think that was the intention. Nice idea, but the policy is > fatally flawed. > > In general, buyers want to minimize the price they pay for goods or > services while sellers want to maximize the price they can get for same. > This is true in labour markets as well. The price should be agreed upon by > both sides of the contract, not a 3rd party such as the gov't. > > The minimum wage does not raise the wage of those workers who for whatever > reason would sell their labour at less then minimum wage, it just puts > them out of work. Employers won't magically come up with the money to pay > more than they think a position is worth, they just do without or load the > work on to other people. Everyone involved is worse off than they would be > if they were allowed to agree on a wage. > > Imposing a minimum wage makes about as much sense as making it illegal to > volunteer.
[Blunderov1] I can see your point to some extent. But I'm troubled by the thought that the market forces could, and probably would, be skewed by employers colluding with each other to keep wages down - not in order to provide the cheapest goods and services, but to maximize their own profits.
In short, does your argument not contain the assumption that the law of supply and demand would be able to operate in a free and unbiased way if a minimum wage was abolished?
And if this is in fact not so, ought (a value call, I know) not governments to err on the side of the weak rather than the strong?
virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #11 on: 2003-10-25 21:20:41 »
I'd like to reiterate on the reality of minimum wages. Minimium wages are set to the absolute minimum required to ensure that the ruling class remains undisturbed by the comfort of the masses. It curbs the onset of either revolution and forced-labor.
If it is too low, the masses secede or revolt. These people are labeled guerillas. Such revolution is typically followed by tyranny and oppression to maintain the low wages while repelling the guerillas. Control-via fear has been proven, repeatedly, to produce low-efficiency governments in the long term. The common recourse of these low-productivity governments is to increase control and fear, or to expand territory.
Alternatively, guerilla revolutions can succeed. The resulting governments are, typically, more oppressive, and thus less productive, than the original.
There is a science to setting a minimum wage to a low-enough level such that outbursts of creativity are encourages, and simultaneously preventing uprising and resentment.
I would hazard that nothing, in life, is absolute. In death, however, I am not certain. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
....pray tell why you think the minimum wage should be abolished, david. while considering your answer, keep in mind that we of the CoV are not the typical citizen out there....and nor are our reasons and reactions.
[Mermaid] Sixty-five years ago on this day in 1938, the Federal Minimum Wage went into effect—at .25˘ an hour. Now it's $5.15 an hour.
After adjusting for inflation, that's 21% lower than in 1979.
[Lucifer] Minimum wage is one of those policies that was created with good intentions but the results are undesirable. Minimum wage should be abolished.
virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #13 on: 2003-10-25 21:36:53 »
You proposition is that employers won't "magically" come up with more money.
Say an owner earns 5 million in profit off of labor, employing 50 people. This owner is then forced, because of unionization or populist laws, to pay everyone an extra 20,000 per year.
The owner now earns 4 million.
The money comes out of the profits for the owners of a business.
If the employees demand too much, then the emploer may seek other lines of business, or become disincentivised.
If there is no unionization or law, then there is nothing to prevent employers from colluding to uniformly lower salaries, raise prices, and form monopollies.
There must be balance and the balance is achieved within the will of the wealthy balanced against the contentedness of the masses.
The truth is that the entire world is a Motivocracy.
And for COV to be a big player in the game of society and politics, motivation is what we must provide. --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
Re:virus: Re:Minimum wage
« Reply #14 on: 2003-10-26 00:43:03 »
[simul]The money comes out of the profits for the owners of a business.
[Mermaid]Actually, the increase in minimum wages will be passed on to the consumer. So the price of the product increases. The profits of the owner is seldom disturbed.
Also note: when the burden of the 'minimum wage' is passed on to the consumer, the worker who supposedly benefits from this alleged protection of a 'minimum wage' finds himself with a slightly hefty pay check, but also finds himself dealing with heavy prices(higher labour costs=increase in prices of products) which makes his *real* purchasing power so miniscule that it is almost invisible. I'd say that it actually goes down!
Also note that with increasing wages(because of the supposedly increasing minimum wage rate), an increasing chunk of the labour force will also begin to pay taxes further dwindling the real green power of their wallets.
How is the picture so far?
wrt DrSebby's query to Lucifer, I can smell a game.....in fact, i am positive something like that should be out there....an acceptable net friendly version which can be played on cov can make the point crystal clear
btw...trivia...minimum wage was highest in 1968...when converted to 2003 figures by adjusting inflation, that is....query: did any war began/ended during and/or around that period? my favourite study is that of the data relating to average wage and average cost of a residential home for the period from 1900-1990. I found a gift shop which sold 'back in 19...etc...it went from 1900 to 1990...it was fascinating..if you can obtain the data, look for changes in costs/wages during key periods like the 1929 depression, world wars, vietnam war, kennedy era, nixon drama, 80s recession, early 90s....of course, this has nothing to do with this minimum wage discussion...just an interesting exercise...
back to the topic....there have been proposals..in theory at least..that minimum wage workers be given a 'tax subsidy' instead of increase in minimum wage rate itself...i dont know of one single govt which has implemented this despite the sensibility of the idea...any new information on this appreciated..
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