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The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« on: 2003-10-03 04:44:41 » |
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The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
Canonical Document URL: http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/DisciplinaryProcess
Authority: [WikiAccepted] 2003-08-25
Preamble
[0.1] Members of the Church of Virus are encouraged to dissociate themselves from punitive disciplinary practices which we see as violating the "Virian Virtues" unless clearly provided for the benefit of, and acceded to by a particular transgressor. As such, all disciplinary actions, are intended to maintain the public credibility of the Church of Virus. Disciplinary actions' primary purpose is to protect the Church of Virus from disrepute. Another, closely related, purpose is that of maintaining the internal consistency of the Church of Virus.
[0.2] This does not mean that we are unable to enforce certain community standards, in so far as this may be required from time-to-time. This is, as we shall show, completely justified. The ability to use our forums is select, that is, limited to members in good standing. Our members are assumed to have the same convictions and therefore to be approaching the questions before the Church of Virus with a common purpose. Throwing the doors open to people who are at open variance with the Body, either in principle or practice, makes it difficult or impossible to maintain order and civility in our deliberations. Nevertheless, we emphasise that disciplinary actions are only undertaken by the community and those acting for the community in order to protect the community, its name, its reputation, its goals, its members and our principles and not to "punish" a transgressor.
[1]Introduction
[1.1] We are not merely a society but a Church. A community of people who share a religion and have a common system of values and interests who have agreed to come together to provide mutual support and fellowship. As such, all members of the community agree to bind themselves to work together for the common good. We do not have a hierarchical management or system of government, but have Meetings (on the Internet and in the "Real world") where any member in good standing may take the floor.
[2] Membership
[2.1] A person does not become a member of a community simply by asserting that they are such a member, but also by the community accepting the membership of that person. In the absence of more particular rules, the only way to determine who is a member of the community is a statement of affiliation by a putative member and the acceptance of this assertion by the community, in otherwords, a community of the willing.
[3] Jurisdiction of the Community
[3.1] If somebody asserts that they are a member of this community, then the opinion and will of the community is binding upon that member, and the will of the community governs that persons acceptance as a member. Further, it is evident that the community has the right to establish and impose rules of conduct for its membership, and responses to infractions of such rules, as well as the right and duty to establish when such rules are broken and enforce the infractions in order to optimize the experience of membership for all of the members and to ensure that the goals of the community are furthered. In addition, the community has the right and duty to ensure that members do not act in a manner contrary to the good of the community, or in such a way as to bring the community into disrepute. As a community of the willing, we cannot judge the acceptability of "any" body but only of those who wish to be members of this community.
[4] The Disciplinary Process
[4.1] When members manifest, or are accused of manifesting their disunity with the Church of Virus, by inconsistent or disorderly conduct, creation of dissension in the community, adoption of principles and practices contrary to the "Virian Virtues" and "Senseless Sins", or through an unwillingness to comply with the necessary rules of our community, the community shall endeavor to establish the facts, and persuade any erring or refractory members of the error of their ways, and bring them, through a written document of unfeigned repentance, and an undertaking of consistent orderly conduct in future, to be reunited with the community.
[4.2] A possible offence may be noted by any Virian, and the person noticing a possible offence are requested to discuss the matter with the person they see as the offender, and if it cannot be resolved quietly and in private, to request the VirianCouncil to act. Such communications should be private.
[4.3] In some cases, particularly when the offense is clear, the Virian Council or any of its members may move directly to urgent action designed to minimise the scope of the damage prior to following these procedures. Such actions might include, but are not limited to:
[4.3.1] kicking or applying a temporary ban in the Church of Virus IRC Channel #virus
[4.3.1]limiting access to the BBS, Mail list, wiki or other facilities
[4.3.1]enabling moderation for a particular user or facility
[4.3.1]deleting submissions
[4.3.1]imposing limits on an ability to use a forum
[4.3.1]suspending a particular facility
[4.4] It should further be noted that users abusing the servers or services provided by any supplier may be subject to sanctions by that supplier (e.g. DOS attacks, IRC server abuse, ban evasion, transmission of span or list flooding) and may be dealt with by a service provider and the Church of Virus is not obliged to, and probably won't intervene in such cases, except to appoint a Reconciliation Committee to investigate the matter and take further action if needed.
[4.5] Emergency action, including action by suppliers or their designated agents, will be followed, as soon as possible, by a process of procedures designed to ascertain:
[4.5.1] Whether a "wrong action" has been perpetrated.
[4.5.2] Who the purportedly guilty parties may be (this may in fact include a complainant where a complaint is found to be unfounded).
[4.5.3] If the "wrong action" was inspired by malice or some other reason (e.g. passion, ignorance, stupidity, accident).
[4.5.4] Whether any (further) remedial action is required.
[4.5.5] Whether rules or procedures might require revision.
[4.6] After any "urgent response", the first step, assuming that a possible "wrong action" or infraction along with one or more possible perpetrators is identified, will be for one or more VirianVectors to communicate with, and possibly admonish the offender, unless the "wrong action" was such as to clearly motivate more rigorous steps.
[5] Reconciliation Committee
[5.1] In the former case, at this stage, the process is acting as much for the benefit of the offender as for the community. The intent is, with as little fuss as possible, to eliminate disunity and the potential for escalation. In the latter case, or should further action be deemed neccesary, the Virian Council or Prime Vector (yet to be determined) will appoint a Reconciliation Committee, to ascertain the facts about the matter reported, and (if the member complained of was guilty) to learn whether the offender is repentant.
[5.2] While the Reconciliation Committee is in process, no public accusations, defenses or discussion of any complaints, justifications or personalities involved will be tolerated. Any breach of this rule shall be resolved by means of a Disciplinary Action.
[5.3] The Reconciliation Committee has the ability, without calling for a vote, of Silencing? any member (not just a member with whom they are dealing). Such an invocation to silence? is not a disciplinary step, and should not be used as such; it is rather a means to restore order to the community and to relieve tensions in order to facilitate their task.
[5.4] If an individual who has engaged in "wrong actions" does not seem contrite, the Virians on the Reconciliation Committee will attempt to persuade the offender to repent. If this is successful the offender will offer a written acknowledgment, expressing that what he or she has done is contrary to the principles of the Church of Virus, that they are sorry for it and intend to behave better in the future. The reason for its being in writing is so that the Church of Virus's disunity with the action will be on record. The acknowledgment might be seen as humiliating, it is not intended that way. If the offender is sincere they will be motivated to clear any damage to the Church of Virus or its reputation.
[5.5] The Reconciliation Committee may accept such an acknowledgement or may impose sanctions upon the member, in consultation with the member or via a vote. Sanctions may include:
[5.5.1] Things required of the offender prior to reinstatement (e.g. Write a report on a group subjected to an UTic attack, provision of a personal apology).
[5.5.2] Deletion of material posted by an offender.
[5.5.3] Capping of offenders (i.e. limiting their use of facilities)
[5.5.4] Moderation of an offender's postings.
[5.5.5] Silencing of offenders.
[5.6] Should the offender not retract and reject their conduct, or should an offender repeatedly break their commitments to cease "wrong action", or should the Reconciliation Committee be convinced that the member does not intend to honor the spirit of an acknowledgement, then the question of Disownment will need to be raised. The Church of Virus will postpone Disownment as long as there seems the least chance of the situation being rectified. If, however, an erring member persistently refuses to offer a satisfactory acknowledgment, then the Church of Virus's appointed Reconciliation Committee will eventually write a paper indicating its disunity with the members actions and the Church of Virus's Disownment of the offender. The purpose of such a paper is the same as the purpose of the acknowledgment, to keep the ethical standards of the Church of Virus a clear matter of record. An offender subjected to Disownment loses all rights within the Church of Virus, most especially the right to use the various on-line communications facilities maintained by the Church of Virus.
[5.7] A member, on notification of Disownment, may appeal this to the Virian Council, first at the time of the Disownment, and again at one year intervals after the disownment. The ballot of the Virian Council to accept or reject such appeals shall be secret, and its results shall be binding.
Acknowledgements
In this document following, some of the wording (particularly that relating to Disownment), has been taken from an article about the practices within another self-assertedly non-dogmatic, albeit Deistic religion, the "Society of Friends", or Quakers and included with relatively minor editing, modernisation and adaptation for on-line use. The source article many be found at "Precedent for Disownment As Historically Practiced in the Society of Friends", Jenny Duskey, Larry Kuenning, Charlotte Kuenning, Licia Kuenning, 1991-08-28. It may be useful to know that rather than a formal structure, the Quakers ran "Meetings" at which there was no prescribed agenda, but where members in good standing could speak out as they felt needful, and that all actions were taken by a vote of the elders or community.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #1 on: 2003-10-03 07:10:29 » |
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Given that there appears to be a great deal of misunderstanding about what the "Disciplinary Process" of the Church of Virus is - and is not, we intend to devote the next Tuesday Meeting 2003-10-07 on the #virus IRC channel at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=7&month=10&year=2003&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&p1=64 to that subject.
You might have voted on this process, you might merely have read about it. Either way, we suggest that you familiarise yourself with it. To that effect and in preparation for that meeting, you will find the current accepted process documented on this thread at http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29437. The information included suggests when invoking the process might be appropriate - and when not; how it is applied; who can apply it; what sanctions or other consequences it might involve and the desired and anticipated outcomes of the disciplinary process.
Bear in mind as you read this, that the "Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus" does not aspire to "judgement", is not based in law and does not impose punishments. Instead, it is based on establishing community relationships and is intended to make our community a pleasant place for all of its memebers, through a process which insists on appropriate behaviour and a graduated scale of sanctions intended to persuade members to conform to desired and expected behavior.
It should be noted that the process relies on the people with the highest reputations to devote time and efforts to this end. Unlike a normal representional system, where a representative is chosen for a fixed term, those Virians who elect to join Meridion, the reputation system of the Church of Virus, have the ability to change the reputations of those implementing this process at any time, and in so doing, enabling them to provide immediate feedback on how this, and other processes and issues are handled. In addition, once a member of the congregation's reputation is sufficiently high, they are able to discuss "management issues" in the Cathedral section of the BBS and contribute to the development of policy on the Wiki.
Meridion and our disciplinary process together are intended to accelerate the rate at which we can respond to "wrong actions" through various technical changes and social processes, so that there is no excuse for the kind of "escalating retaliation" often seen in on-line communities (including our own) when feedback is belated.
If you would like to raise issues, discuss this process, make suggestions, call for clarifications, etc. before the meeting, please make responses on this thread and only on this thread. If you do partipate, please do not quote from the document, but simply refer to the paragraph numbers as that will simplify arranging the discussion into some kind of order.
When criticising this effort, please try to keep your responses impersonal and to the point, and whenever possible, suggest concrete changes where you feel the process is potentially non-ideal.
Finally a note on the naming of this topic. While today, discipline often means what is done to other people - and in such a way that they probably won't enjoy it, in earlier times discipline refered mainly to a way of living. Living in such a way as to benefit yourself and your community and maximising your ability to reach your potential. This is the form of discipline that the Church of Virus hopes to achieve.
Kind Regards
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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RE: virus: The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #2 on: 2003-10-03 07:52:22 » |
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grep sanctions. Hmmm, nothing? Progress at last.
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 03 October 2003 09:48
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
[SNIP]
Finally a note on the naming of this topic. While today, discipline often
means what is done to other people - and in such a way that they probably
won't enjoy it, in earlier times discipline refered mainly to a way of
living. Living in such a way as to benefit yourself and your community and
maximising your ability to reach your potential. This is the form of
discipline that the Church of Virus hopes to achieve.
Kind Regards
Hermit
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38>
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #3 on: 2003-10-03 08:17:33 » |
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[JonathanDavis] grep sanctions. Hmmm, nothing? Progress at last.
[Hermit] I think your grep may be broken...
[aim@stars docs]# wget -O - http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29437 | StripHtmlBbsFmt -r 0 -h 0 | grep 'sanction'
[4.4] It should further be noted that users abusing the servers or services provided by any supplier may be subject to sanctions by that supplier (e.g. DOS attacks, IRC server abuse, ban evasion, transmission of span or list flooding) and may be dealt with by a service provider and the Church of Virus is not obliged to, and probably won't intervene in such cases, except to appoint a Reconciliation Committee to investigate the matter and take further action if needed.
[5.5] The Reconciliation Committee may accept such an acknowledgement or may impose sanctions upon the member, in consultation with the member or via a vote. Sanctions may include:
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #4 on: 2003-10-03 10:23:52 » |
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[Hermit]Bear in mind as you read this, that the "Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus" does not aspire to "judgement", is not based in law and does not impose punishments. Instead, it is based on establishing community relationships and is intended to make our community a pleasant place for all of its memebers, through a process which insists on appropriate behaviour and a graduated scale of sanctions intended to persuade members to conform to desired and expected behavior.
[Mermaid]I see the words 'sanctions' and 'appropriate behaviour' and yet you insist that its not about punishment or judgement. When members are 'persuaded to conform to desired and expected behaviour', how is not based on law?
[Mermaid]I understand that the members have a duty towards CoV. What about the members' expectations of CoV?
[Mermaid]I suggest that we have an IRC chat preceding the Disciplinary Process chat that discusses in depth about the expectations and needs of the members who form CoV. Before we agree to conform to 'desired and expected behaviour', I think we need to know if there is any compatibility between members and CoV. Rest assured, the second IRC chat will be less chaotic and rewarding for the members if they are comforted with the knowledge that their voluntary conformity is for something valuable they recieve from CoV.
[Hermit]In addition, once a member of the congregation's reputation is sufficiently high, they are able to discuss "management issues" in the Cathedral section of the BBS and contribute to the development of policy on the Wiki.
[Mermaid]Management issues pertaining to what? How we are managed? i.e. how will non conformity be punished and who will be the language nazi? OR management issues like: What is the function of CoV in the real world? How are we *really* competing with other religions? Are we reaching out to others or does the general populace find us by a random google search?
[Mermaid]If its the latter, shouldnt we discuss those issues first before this proposed Disciplinary Process IRC chat?
[Mermaid]I think there has to be other issues to be discussed before the Disciplinary Process is discussed. I, for one, would like to know what I am getting back in return before I sign up to be tried for non conformity to desired and expected behaviour.
[Hermit]Finally a note on the naming of this topic. While today, discipline often means what is done to other people - and in such a way that they probably won't enjoy it, in earlier times discipline refered mainly to a way of living. Living in such a way as to benefit yourself and your community and maximising your ability to reach your potential. This is the form of discipline that the Church of Virus hopes to achieve.
[Mermaid]So, in earlier times and according to the earlier meaning, discipline is voluntary and 'understood' rather than imposed...right?
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JD
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #5 on: 2003-10-03 11:17:00 » |
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Quote from: Hermit on 2003-10-03 08:17:33
[JonathanDavis] grep sanctions. Hmmm, nothing? Progress at last.
[Hermit] I think your grep may be broken... |
[Note to neurologist: It happened again!]
Part of my problem with all this talk of 'discipline' - pace your assurances - is that I am worried it is a tool for manipulation that may be used in bad faith (abused).
These measures were introduced for mutual convenience to countervail the problems of abuse and flooding but like so much legislation, they run the risk of being co-opted for ends other than those agreed upon (like censorship or revenge).
For now the only thing I am personally comfortable with is Lucifer's arbitration.
Whilst the procedure has vague terms making it subject to whimsical interpretations, it ought to be suspended.
I would like to note however that I am in full agreement with you on the broad aims of this exercise and convey my thanks to you personally for the effort you have put in to authoring these processes and trying to tackle these difficult problems.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #6 on: 2003-10-03 12:13:02 » |
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[Hermit 1]Bear in mind as you read this, that the "Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus" does not aspire to "judgement", is not based in law and does not impose punishments. Instead, it is based on establishing community relationships and is intended to make our community a pleasant place for all of its memebers, through a process which insists on appropriate behaviour and a graduated scale of sanctions intended to persuade members to conform to desired and expected behavior.
[Mermaid 2]I see the words 'sanctions' and 'appropriate behaviour' and yet you insist that its not about punishment or judgement. When members are 'persuaded to conform to desired and expected behaviour', how is not based on law?
[Hermit 3] The difference being that instead of an interest in "punishment", or even in "equity", we are interested only in the community, our members, and our ability to support and disseminate our religion. Thus, even when a member has engaged in "wrong action" our sole interest is in reestablishing that member within the community while preserving the community's ability to function effectively. Even when a member shows by their words and repeated actions that they are incompatible with the community, they are not "punished, they are simply "disowned" by the community and continue to live their lives as and how they would. In otherwords, rather like a "no fault" divorce, even the most disruptive people are not, in any way, "punished" for incompatibility.
[Mermaid 2]I understand that the members have a duty towards CoV. What about the members' expectations of CoV?
[Hermit 3] Like any church, and indeed, due to Meridion, to a far greater extent than than other churches, the CoV is no more (or less) than the sum of its members. Meridion allows the CoV to be directed directly by the membership in order to facilitate our objective of evolving.
[Mermaid 2]I suggest that we have an IRC chat preceding the Disciplinary Process chat that discusses in depth about the expectations and needs of the members who form CoV. Before we agree to conform to 'desired and expected behaviour', I think we need to know if there is any compatibility between members and CoV. Rest assured, the second IRC chat will be less chaotic and rewarding for the members if they are comforted with the knowledge that their voluntary conformity is for something valuable they recieve from CoV.
[Hermit 3] This seems unneccessarily laborious. Firstly the current rules are already established, through votes of the CoV, and this meeting is to explain them and their application. Secondly, as the the CoV is defined by its membership within the overriding environment of the "Goals", "Sins" and "Virtues". Thirdly, as you are fully aware, this goes for the IRC channel too. Except when formal discussions are occuring, the topic in the channel is decided by the membership of the moment. Fourthly, during the scheduled chat, formal channel rules will be in place, and as always, disruptive behaviour will be discouraged. As this has seldom been an issue in the past, I don't anticipate chaos to ensue. Why do you?
[Hermit 1]In addition, once a member of the congregation's reputation is sufficiently high, they are able to discuss "management issues" in the Cathedral section of the BBS and contribute to the development of policy on the Wiki.
[Mermaid 2]Management issues pertaining to what? How we are managed? i.e. how will non conformity be punished and who will be the language nazi? OR management issues like: What is the function of CoV in the real world? How are we *really* competing with other religions? Are we reaching out to others or does the general populace find us by a random google search?
[Hermit 3] We are self-managed, as the rules are put in place by the community. As the rules and members are selected by the community within the ambit of the environment set by our "Goals", "Sins" and "Virtues", they will change over time, moderated by he fact that a community will usually regard its better known, and thus, typically, longer standing members with greater respect, ensuring a reasonable degree of continuity and stability in the medium term.
[Hermit 3] I suggest that you read the "Disciplinary Process." Once you have, you will understand that all members have the right, at all times, to correspond with each other privately if they feel unhappy, and to call for a reconciliation committee if they cannot resolve an issue amongst themselves. The reconciliation committee can take any action they deem necessary to protect the interests of the CoV (see our main Website) and as the CoV is made up of its members, of our members.
[Hermit 3] I suggest you study "memetics" and "critical mass" to learn how a memetic community grows if it does not chase people away faster than it attracts them.
[Mermaid 2]If its the latter, shouldnt we discuss those issues first before this proposed Disciplinary Process IRC chat?
[Hermit 3] I'm not sure how you see this linkage as being necessary? We are providing an opportunity to discuss the Disciplinary Process. Not proselytizing. Not redefining our goals. Not establishing sub tasks. All of these things are indeed important and all Virians are always invited to contribute to them. But I really can't see the logic you used to connect them. Perhaps you would like to write a paper explaining what you mean and why you see this as important. Speaking for myself, I can think of nothing more important than explaining the processes we are already using and perhaps, if there is time, some of the thinking about the future.
[Mermaid 2]I think there has to be other issues to be discussed before the Disciplinary Process is discussed. I, for one, would like to know what I am getting back in return before I sign up to be tried for non conformity to desired and expected behaviour.
[Hermit 3] As far as I am aware, there is no duress involved in any aspect of the CoV. Certainly, none was intended. If you feel this assurance is incorrect, please point it out. If you don't like the processes adopted by the community, you can conform to them, attempt to change them, be subjected to them, or depart. Nobody here that I know of would dream of forcing you to do anything you choose not to. If you feel this is not the case, I suggest that you drop Lucifer a note explaining who has done it and how this is being done.
[Hermit 1]Finally a note on the naming of this topic. While today, discipline often means what is done to other people - and in such a way that they probably won't enjoy it, in earlier times discipline refered mainly to a way of living. Living in such a way as to benefit yourself and your community and maximising your ability to reach your potential. This is the form of discipline that the Church of Virus hopes to achieve.
[Mermaid 2]So, in earlier times and according to the earlier meaning, discipline is voluntary and 'understood' rather than imposed...right?
[Hermit 3] As is the disciplinary process documented here. Our community reserves the right to withdraw itself or our facilities when this is called for in terms of the Disciplinary Process, but no discipline can be imposed on a member except with that members agreement. Consider for a moment how ridiculous any other approach would be. How could I, using an example in place (see Ref [5.5.1], force you to write a paper about a group?
[Hermit 3] Like most words, this one has migrated over time. Quoting from "Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)":- Discipline Dis`ci*pline, n. F. discipline, L. disciplina, from discipulus. See Disciple. 1. The treatment suited to a disciple or learner; education; development of the faculties by instruction and exercise; training, whether physical, mental, or moral.
- Disciple Dis*ci"ple, n. OE. disciple, deciple, OF. disciple, fr. L. discipulus, fr. discere to learn (akin to docere to teach; see Docile) + prob. a root meaning to turn or drive, as in L. pellere to drive (see Pulse). One who receives instruction from another; a scholar; a learner; especially, a follower who has learned to believe in the truth of the doctrine of his teacher; an adherent in doctrine; as, the disciples of Plato; the disciples of our Savior.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #7 on: 2003-10-03 12:38:48 » |
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[Jonathan 2] Part of my problem with all this talk of 'discipline' - pace your assurances - is that I am worried it is a tool for manipulation that may be used in bad faith (abused).
[Hermit 3] If you are saying that the most reputed members of the CoV will abuse these processes, do you not anticipate that the membership will quickly rectify this by choosing a new set of reputable members to replace the disreputable?
[Hermit 3] If you are saying that this will not happen, you are basically suggesting that a substantial proportion of the membership is interested in operating in bad faith, and I really wonder what a nice person like you is doing in such "evil" company.
[Hermit 3] Or perhaps you are confused about your position? I'm sure you wouldn't be offering a slippery slope argument. Or would you?
[Jonathan 2] These measures were introduced for mutual convenience to countervail the problems of abuse and flooding but like so much legislation, they run the risk of being co-opted for ends other than those agreed upon (like censorship or revenge).
[Hermit 3] Not at all. These rules and their "logical prequels" have been recognised as necessary, researched and under discussion since 1999. But not until David Lucifer invented and established Meridion did we have a mechanism with which to put them into place. Granted that until the last batch of serious trauma there was no apparent urgency, but the process was not primarily motivated by the problems of abuse and flooding, but to make the CoV a more pleasant and attractive environment. See our "Goals" to comprehend why.
[Jonathan 2] For now the only thing I am personally comfortable with is Lucifer's arbitration.
[Hermit 3] And perhaps if there had been a little consideration for him, and the stress caused by a lot of clowns ripping up on each other "for fun," or otherwise, with DavidLucifer absolutely loathing unpleasantness and undignified behaviour, coupled with watching people leave the community each time it happens, then we wouldn't have spent 5 years of our lives trying to find answers to the problems. I think that the reputation system, coupled wth the evolving rules, stands a better chance of working than anything else we've tried. Give it a chance. You might like it. If it doesn't work, we will continue evolving until either we find a solution or the forum is dead.
[Jonathan 2] Whilst the procedure has vague terms making it subject to whimsical interpretations, it ought to be suspended.
[Hermit 3] This might be needed eventually if you imagine that those selected by the community as being the most concerned about the future of the CoV - including, I notice, DavidLucifer, are likely to engage in "whimsical interpretations." Is this what you think? If not, could it be a straw man?
[Jonathan 2] I would like to note however that I am in full agreement with you on the broad aims of this exercise and convey my thanks to you personally for the effort you have put in to authoring these processes and trying to tackle these difficult problems.
[Hermit 3] Jolly square of you old boy.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Mermaid
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #8 on: 2003-10-03 13:51:28 » |
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Ok..I'll try to make it simple this time.
If I have to subject myself to the Disciplinary Process etc of CoV in order to CONFORM to DESIRED AND ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR, what is in it for me?
When I have to conform to 'something' or according to the wishes of 'someone', discipline myself etc...I am obviously doing it because I am gaining something else from the system, right? The agreement is, like anything else, a transaction...a barter...whatever you want to call it.
"I submit to the rules of CoV in return for ___________ " -> fill in the blanks, please?
Now, I am more than willing to submit myself to conform my behaviour in order to avoid getting entangled in the Disciplinary Process that you have painstakingly created...however, before I agree to that, I would like to discuss with the rest of the cov members on IRC or on the bbs about our common goals and aspirations and plans in order to evaluate if the disciplinary process and need for conformity is relevant to the mission statement adopted by CoV. This is why I need to have a chat prior to agreeing and submitting to the disciplines imposed on me by CoV. I am positive you understood it this time... So, when should we have this primary chat session?
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #10 on: 2003-10-03 14:37:10 » |
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[Blunderov]
OK I'll bite. What's a grep?
Best Regards
> [JonathanDavis] grep sanctions. Hmmm, nothing? Progress at last.
>
> [Hermit] I think your grep may be broken...
>
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #11 on: 2003-10-03 14:54:23 » |
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[Blunderov]
OK I'll bite. What's a grep?
Best Regards
GREP(1) GREP(1)
NAME
grep, egrep, fgrep - print lines matching a pattern
SYNOPSIS
grep [options] PATTERN [FILE...]
grep [options] [-e PATTERN | -f FILE] [FILE...]
DESCRIPTION
Grep searches the named input FILEs (or standard input if no files are
named, or the file name - is given) for lines containing a match to the
given PATTERN. By default, grep prints the matching lines.
In addition, two variant programs egrep and fgrep are available. Egrep
is the same as grep -E. Fgrep is the same as grep -F.
* Hermit bows
Source : Unix Documentation
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Mermaid
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #12 on: 2003-10-03 15:09:58 » |
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[Hermit] Perhaps because you realise that The main advantage conferred upon adherents is Virus provides a conceptual framework for leading a truly meaningful life and attaining immortality without resorting to mystical delusions." and because you share the goals of the CoV. Right?
[Mermaid]How is it an advantage conferred upon adherents? I never had mystical delusions in the first place...  ....so its not an "advantage" per se.
[Mermaid]If a member of the CoV shares the goals of CoV. Ok. But what does this have to do with what the member GAINS from CoV in return for submitting to the disciplinary process? You do realise that you are taking a lot of liberty by asking me to conform to 'desired and accepted behaviour', dont you? There ought to be something more than the joy of sharing goals and ideas. In other words, I can be a godless heathen and discard faith and embrace rationality and still not be part of CoV(according to you, that is) *if* I dont submit to a disciplinary process if I *gasp* dont conform to "desired and accepted behaviour". We need to discuss all this before. Before we discuss all of this, I need to know why I am in the CoV and what CoV is doing for ME.
[Hermit]Otherwise you would never have joined the BBS, because that would have been hypocritical according to the following: Virus is a collaborative project; if you subscribe to the ideas consider joining us on the Virus BBS!
[Mermaid]How is it hypocritical? I am subscribing to the ideas shared by many in CoV. I am subscribing to the bbs. I am not subscribing to the disciplinary process. I am sure I share a lot of things with many many people in this world. Some, I may not even know. Some, I know and are outside of CoV. They dont impose any discipline upon me. They dont ask me to conform.
[Hermit]....found on the above page. And, after all, hypocrisy is a Virian Sin.
PS See, I can shout much louder than you can shout  .
[Mermaid]Errr..I dont think so... 
[Hermit]But do you really think this looks good?
[Mermaid]Not at all. Stop it AT ONCE. It's ghastly! 
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #13 on: 2003-10-03 15:10:03 » |
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[Blunderov]
Thank you.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
Behalf
> Of Hermit
> Sent: 03 October 2003 2054
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: virus: Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
>
>
> [Blunderov]
> OK I'll bite. What's a grep?
> Best Regards
>
> GREP(1)
> GREP(1)
>
> NAME
> grep, egrep, fgrep - print lines matching a pattern
>
> SYNOPSIS
> grep [options] PATTERN [FILE...]
> grep [options] [-e PATTERN | -f FILE] [FILE...]
>
> DESCRIPTION
> Grep searches the named input FILEs (or standard input if no
files
> are
> named, or the file name - is given) for lines containing a
match to
> the
> given PATTERN. By default, grep prints the matching lines.
>
> In addition, two variant programs egrep and fgrep are
available.
> Egrep
> is the same as grep -E. Fgrep is the same as grep -F.
>
> /me bows
> Source : Unix Documentation
>
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
>
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid
=2
> 9437>
> ---
> To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-
> bin/virus-l>
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Hermit
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Re:The Disciplinary Process of the Church of Virus
« Reply #14 on: 2003-10-03 16:15:21 » |
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Perhaps it may be helpful to focus on one paragraph of "The Disciplinary Process"
Quote:[2] Membership
[2.1] A person does not become a member of a community simply by asserting that they are such a member, but also by the community accepting the membership of that person. In the absence of more particular rules, the only way to determine who is a member of the community is a statement of affiliation by a putative member and the acceptance of this assertion by the community, in otherwords, a community of the willing. |
I suggest that this paragraph is a key to understanding what the entire "non-punishment" oriented regime we have instituted is about. Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a member of a church or other such "community of the willing." Affiliation is always voluntary and mutual. Not only does an outsider have a choice as to whether or not they wish to join with a community, but the community has the choice as to whether or not to accept that person as a member of the community.
From this it follows, that when the community withdraws it's assent from a member, temporarily or permanently, this is not in any way an infringement of the member in question's "rights", unless a "right" to be a member of the community exists. However, as we have seen, no "right" to be a member does exist. So when our community acts to protect itself, its members and good order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.
Why a person joins a community is an interesting, but totally different question. One which I think deserves to be explored in a separate track.
Kind Regards
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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