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Topic: virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering? (Read 2684 times) |
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #1 on: 2003-09-03 20:23:04 » |
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Condem the behaviour. I don't feel particularly happy about it myself.
While doing so, please notice that Mermaid had chosen, in my opinion, to dredge up and then deliberately mischaracterise a two year old disagreement in what appeared to me to be an attempt to reflect me in a highly negative light - and chose to do so while I was not around to respond. When I discovered this posted to the BBS I was, to put it mildly, highly pissed off, as Mermaid is a sometime friend, and I had been trying rather for the last little while to ignore or be nice to said Mermaid despite her what seems to me, frequently obnoxious behaviour. Further, unlike Mermaid, I confronted her directly, rather than talking behind her back. In any case, whatever the reasons, I went way further than I had intended to when she was pissy in the channel, and to prevent further escalation booted her and later myself.
As far as supposed "abuse of power" is concerned, please notice that Mermaid has exactly the same powers as I used - as does any channel op.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #2 on: 2003-09-03 20:29:30 » |
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I do not think that this behavior should be tolerated in the slightest bit. I think we should call for a vote for a punishment for this immediately. This is exactly what I have been talking about in an e-mails with many people, and I think it is time that this problem is finally dealt with.
I personally like talking with Hermit, and he has provided me with a lot of information and insight that I highly value. He has done a lot for the CoV, and his contributions are normally quality. By everything that I've said to others I do not want them to get the wrong idea. I do not hate Hermit. I think he is a good guy, but he has some faults that makes him a bad person to put in a position of power.
I have talked to many people on this issue lately, and only one person has not agreed with what I have been saying. It seems that my attempt to get people to vote honestly though, was a failure, and seems to have only hurt my reputation. Though, I'm not concerned with my reputation. It can drop all it wants. We need people to stop caring about their reputation and start standing up for what they believe in, and what is the best for the CoV. I would like all of you whom I have talked to, and who have shown me support to once and forall show me support in pubic here. It does us no good to sit in the shadows and hope that some great change will occur. Things are not going to change if people do not start speaking up!
This is not the first time we've seen Hermit abuse his powers, and it will not be the last if something is not done about this. This is what I propose: We deal with this issue now, and come up with a proper punishment. I am currently writing a "Abuse of Power Law" that I think we should openly discuss and polish after it is completed. Then we can take a vote on the "law" and hopefully we can have it passed. I believe that if we can pass something like that into the doctrine, then it'll make people with power think twice before doing something out of anger, or personal hate. Another thing, if such a law is put into place, I think we should enforce it to it's full extent. No one should get away with abusing the power that has been given to them by the members of the CoV.
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Zloduska
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Handcuffs are for amateurs.
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #3 on: 2003-09-03 20:40:45 » |
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A possible, better solution I have been thinking of mentioning:
Hermit and Mermaid both agree to prohibit themselves from bringing up the other's name in public. Hermit never mentions Mermaid in the channel or BBS; likewise Mermaid never mentions Hermit, and they are forbidden from communicating with one another while not getting along. Basically ignore to the highest degree. The penalty for invoking the other's name in any way, publicly (with the exception of person-to-person private conversation) would be fair and equal- a short temporary ban from the place of incident (#virus or BBS).
I don't think the problem is Hermit himself. I don't think the problem is Mermaid herself. I love them both. Damn, they sure know how to antagonize each other though. The problem is frequent incompatilbilty and lack of self-control in public, which further annoys them both to anger and irritates the rest of us, to say the least. It's not that you can't reason with either of them (which was Dees' problem); but you can't avoid the inevitable, ugly personality conflicts either.
Can you guys at least agree on that for a bit to test it out?
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #4 on: 2003-09-03 20:43:02 » |
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Z, I do not see this as a matter of "Hermit and Mermaid." This is a matter of Hermit abusing the power that we have trusted him with. It doesn't really matter why, it's just the fact that he did do it. Power abuse in any situation is uncalled for.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
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Kalkor
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Kneading the swollen donkey...
 
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #5 on: 2003-09-03 20:54:44 » |
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As an "abuse of power", I'm going to have to agree with Hermit on this one: they both had the power necessary to do what was done. However, I will stand by what I said it was in the channel:
[17:14] <KalGone> it was an unwarranted personal attack as far as I can tell
[17:14] <KalGone> improper use of the #virus channel
I think Zloduska's suggestion has merit, but I wouldn't stop the construction of your law, Elvensage... it may come in handy down the road, for instance in situations where someone with more IRC power bans someone with less IRC power for a personal reason.
And Hermit, get a thicker skin man ;-}
Kalkor
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #6 on: 2003-09-03 20:57:58 » |
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Elvensage, I don't know what or who is is gnawing at you.
I recommend that you read the VirianPolicy section on the wiki if you would like to take this further.
There are proposed mechanisms there which are intended to deal with these issues.
Before you begin you will need to explain exactly what power you are refering to and exactly how you see it being abused.
Naturally if you wish to turn this into a formal issue you are welcome to do so.
However I would notice that you are in fact not adhering to the formal process yourself, and that in the event that formal action is sought that I too will be seeking formal action against Mermaid.
Have a wonderful day.
Hermit
PS Z, you have the right of it I think.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #7 on: 2003-09-03 21:11:06 » |
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You're correct, as of today I am no longer able to do much of anything since my rep has been lowered (and it's not that hard to figure out why).
First off Hermit, I want to tell you that I like you. I enjoy the things you have to share with me, and I think you're a good guy. I've discussed these issues with you personally on many occasions. You know what I think of you booting people, and what I think of you conspiring and tricking people. This shouldn't be that much of a suprise to you. I thought I've made it clear on numerous occasions that I will stand up to you if I feel that it needs to be done. Right now I feel that it needs to be done. I feel that you have abused your powers as an op on the channel, on numerous occasions for starters.
Pulling this "If you attack me, then I'm going to attack Mermaid" bit is bullshit. I'm sorry to say. To me it seems asif it is your way of trying to put me in a position of chosing to do what I feel is right, or protect someone I find to be a friend. This isn't about your arguement with Mermaid, it is about your abuse of power, and people. I can go back into the logs and pull out a number of times you have kicked people for unjustifed reasons. I can also go into my personal logs and post things that have been said and done when you decided to turn log lady off a few times. If you want to play dirty, go ahead. I'm trying to keep this as clean as possible. I do not wish to dirty my hands by using some of the tactics that you have been known to use.
I think it was pretty cowardly of you to lower my reputation so that I could not start the formal process myself. This isn't about me and you Hermit. This is about you abusing your power.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #8 on: 2003-09-03 21:24:36 » |
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Just for reference, as the intent behind the proposed processes some of which are already in place is to kleep this kind of discussion off our BBS and prevent messing our forums with accusations and counter accusations, but seeing that this linen appears to be being washed in public:
Here is what I objected to and which preempted the sequence noted by Kalkor:
Kid-A,"How does a written language die?", Reply 1, 2003-09-01
<snip>
Kalkor: This was what triggered the sequence you commented on:
<Mermaid> of course, the cheerful exchange on sanskrit in cov came to a crashing end when hermit decided that some indian guy from mauritius was trying to convert cov to eastern religious mumbo jumbo
<Jonesey> much more useful to have good logic and discrete math training
<Mermaid> i tried my best..but there is only so much you can do when hermit has taken up a cause...he is like a train on cocaine
<snap>
The relevant sections on the Wiki may be found at:
http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/VirianDiscipline - Status WorkInProgress
http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/DisciplinaryAction - Status WorkInProgress
http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/DisciplinaryProcess - Status WikiAccepted
http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/ReconciliationCommittee - WikiAffirmed
Notice that as the "Disciplinary process has been accepted via a vote (it is a restatement of the policy established in http://virus.lucifer.com/wiki/Disownment) that this is the particular process that would apply if any.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Kid-A
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #9 on: 2003-09-03 21:31:29 » |
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Hey, can I just apologise for my careless post which in the end caused the
said "abuse of power".
I'd just like to say that it was not an unprovoked attack against Mermaid,
although she did not realise why Hermit was pissed off in the firstplace and
so was not really in a position to defend herself, even with an op.
As this could go on forever, i'd like to say i'd rather I am punished for
this incident, as I was careless in what I posted and what Mermaid had said
about Hermit should have remained a private message even if it was said in
the channel behind his back.
Love
Kid
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #10 on: 2003-09-03 21:31:51 » |
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And let me ask you Hermit, is what you said reason for a kickban? And how about all the other times you kicked her in the past? Where all those justified? Is it right to kick someone because they said something that you do not like? Seems to me that you're becoming big on censorship when someone says something "bad" about you. That's pretty funny in my opinion since it seems that you have bad things to say about so many people, and a lot of the time you make them public.
Also, if this topic wasn't posted here, how many people do you think would actually read it? Not nearly as many. This is something that needs to be addressed on the list with everyone. I think as long as we keep this discussion in one thread, and not 20 then everything should be fine.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
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Kid-A
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #11 on: 2003-09-03 21:39:49 » |
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I had assumed that all previous attacks on persons whether it be in the bbs or in #virus had been forgiven since Davids sheriff post.
As this should be considered an isolated incident, can we keep it as one and not try to dig up the past Elven?
Kid
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ElvenSage
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #12 on: 2003-09-03 21:45:27 » |
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Kid, I think that the past is relevent to this conversation. The reason being that I had let this problem "go" for some time, and just ignored it. I have kept my mouth shut in pubic other then in rare occasions that took place in the IRC channel.
What I think David was trying to do is make it so that someone can not be punished for anything that has happened previous to the point he made that statement. That doesn't mean that previous examples cannot be used to help the case against him.
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Safe from the pain and truth and choice and other poison devils
See.. they don't give a fuck about you, like i do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go Back to sleep
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #13 on: 2003-09-03 21:49:07 » |
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Actually Elvensage, your reputation had dropped two days ago to where you could not have posted a vote. At that time I had you rated as high as I could, and suggested to others that they consider the possibility of raising their estimation of your reputation - as I recalled that you had mentioned that you saw the ability to establish votes as important to what you had been working on. It was then decided by others that as you have access to the wiki (everyone with a reputation over 6 now has this) that that would probably be sufficient and that you could work on improving others perception of you yourself.
The only reason I have now lowered my opinion of you - and I have, although probably temporarily - is that rather than a discussion with me - as the fellow Virian you whose actions you were unhappy with, or attempting to follow the pre-agreed and documented process, your friendship with Mermaid lead you to not to communicate with me, which has resulted in yet another personal disgereement getting onto our BBS - which is exactly what we have been attempting to establish systems to avoid.
My recommendation is to study the already established and instituted procedures. They exist. If you feel that you have a valid complaint, please follow them. Notice that private communication with me should have been your first step, and then communication with David Lucifer had you not been able to resolve your issues with me is what was called for. Not attempting to form a clique to bring me what you see as my just desserts. In that light, I would suggest that publicaly dragging in further allegations of what you see as "abuse of power" (and I'd also remind you that the primary rule on any IRC channel, including #virus, is "don't piss the ops") in order to bolster your arguments is in direct violation of the existing accepted rules.
Thank-you for your attention
Hermit
Who further notes that he has already apologised for his words issued in anger, and also agrees not to be involved in a repeat action.
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Kid-A
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Re:virus: Abuse of power or playful bickering?
« Reply #14 on: 2003-09-03 21:52:06 » |
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Personally I have no real objection to that, in law you cannot use past offences to mount up evidence as it is not totally relevent to the case in question, if it is not allowed in a court of law then should it be allowed here?
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