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Topic: virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us" (Read 2077 times) |
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Walter Watts
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virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« on: 2003-06-01 17:39:38 » |
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"In managing the city's Medicaid program, the mayor faces one huge
variable...New York City's undocumented immigrant population. The
greater New York City area is one of the country's top five destinations
of undocumented immigrants, and according to some observers it is the
No. 1 destination for employment-age males.
U.S. hospitals write off between $1 billion and $2 billion each year in
health care costs for the treatment of undocumented immigrants. Those
costs are attributable chiefly to care of the 300,000 undocumented
immigrants that flow across the U.S.-Mexico border annually. The total
Medicaid expenditure for the emergency medical treatment of undocumented
immigrants now approaches $ 3 billion per year (nationally).
New York City has no real ability to gauge the number of its
undocumented immigrants, as the group is perennially unresponsive to the
census and other measures designed to determine who lives here. This
makes efficient management of programs like Medicaid all the more
difficult.
As is the case with most large cities, it is because the real dimension
of New York's undocumented immigrant population is unknown -- though
likely in the millions -- and unregulated that it can unexpectedly
mushroom to budget-breaking proportions.
Medicaid, which regularly accounts for 10 percent of the city's budget
and is already the most expensive such program in the nation, has
swelled an additional 40 percent, or approximately 132,000 new
enrollees, under Mayor Bloomberg.
....each new adult signed up will cost the city $1,300 and each new
child $375. To get an idea just how much money is involved, consider
that New York's Gov. Pataki, in bargaining with the city over cuts and a
bailout, proposed $1 billion in Medicaid cuts.
.....the one-quarter share that the city must contribute to its Medicaid
payments is already $4 billion.....Senators Kyl and McCain of Arizona
have introduced legislation that would reimburse the states an
additional $1.45 billion per year as payment for medical services to
undocumented immigrants...New York and other large U.S. cities continue
to be a beacon for the country's undocumented immigrant population,
Here's the key. Where are tax payers rights?
...."all Americans can expect an even greater percentage of their tax
dollars to be consumed by the Medicaid programs of our large cities."
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual
partner spayed or neutered."
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Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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Kharin
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #1 on: 2003-06-18 15:19:14 » |
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Hmm. I've been pondering this one of late. During the 19th century Thomas Carlyle led denunciation of the migration of Irish Labourers into Britain. However, cheap labour from Ireland was largely responsible for much industrial development at that time. In fact, the wages were so low that comparisons with earlier slaves were not entirely inappropriate. Looking at current debates, I wonder if much has changed; large swathes of the British economy are dependent on such labour. For example, from the FT:
"The first job of the day is easy. A quick call to a flat near Sloane Square. A check on a newly fitted gas boiler. ... The whole operation would be unremarkable except that all the workmen here are Polish, three of tens of thousands of Poles and east Europeans employed in the London building industry...."
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1054966026238&p=1012571727132
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #2 on: 2003-06-18 20:47:00 » |
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It is myth. Foreign workers contribute vastly more in taxes than they receive in benefits. Source: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba400/
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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RE: virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #5 on: 2003-06-19 13:38:04 » |
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[Jonathan] The data is from 1976
[Hermit] True
[Jonathan] and is consequently grossly outdated. Looks like the myth being touted here is the homo economicus pro-immigration argument is sound
[Hermit] Interesting. Outdated? Outdated = myth? Support your assertions. Are you really saying that having increased the INS staffing from 8,100 (in 1975) to 35,400 (in 2002) [Source http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/budgetsummary/btd/1975_2002/btd01ins.pdf ] and budget from $200 million to $ 2.5 billion in constant 1983 Dollars (against the CPI) (actually from $ 183 million to $ 5,5 billion) that the problem with costs associated with "undocumented immigrants" has exaccerbated from where they contributed to the economy to where they are a nett cost to the economy? I think that you should cite some data. Please try not to cherry-pick your sources.
[Jonathan] and that in the 21st century uncontrolled mass immigration is generally a good thing.
[Hermit] Is this a straw man from you? Please try to show where this argument was made in my original reply.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #6 on: 2003-06-19 14:08:44 » |
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You may find http://www.window.state.tx.us/border/ch11/ch11.html illuminating.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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RE: virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #8 on: 2003-06-20 07:02:57 » |
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Dear Hermit,
I see no benefit in we two immigrants arguing over immigration. The source
you provided to support your argument was flawed. I simply pointed that out.
I think the argument over the economic benefits of immigration misses the
point. Some immigrants, like me, provide massive amounts of tax revenue for
our host countries. Other immigrants - the majority - are a net drain on the
host country. It looks like we balance out when you compare tax revenues
versus benefits paid out, but the picture changes when other factors are
included like use (and abuse) of the free National Health System, Schooling,
Housing, Crime, the black economy and socio-cultural cohesion.
The immigration debate is not just about economics and some foolishly
pretend this is the only factor upon which to measure the matter. The are
hugely important issues which need to be considered when assessing pros and
cons. In this country these include the massive problem of immigrant crime,
the complete lack of an integration and naturalisation policy or system, the
cost of multiculturalism and political correctness, the effects of majority
deracination, the accommodation of political Islam, the rise of reactionary
majority ethnic nationalists and so on.
In the UK we have rampaging immigrant crime wave. Whole criminal industries
are now controlled by ethnic immigrant mafia. Health services are collapsing
under the burden of treating hordes of immigrants - most AIDS and TB beds in
the UK are occupied by immigrants who have understandably come to get
treatment. There is a crisis in education as schools cannot cope with the
irruption of non-English speaking children. The housing situation in the
South East is critical thanks to the hundreds of thousands of immigrants
cramming in every year - most of whom refuse to move elsewhere in the
country. I could go on at length.
On the positive side, we have enormously industrious immigrants working all
over this country doing essential work - but mostly illegally. As I think
Kharin already mentioned, from building labourers through to coffee
waitresses, cleaners, you name it - immigrants. They are mostly Eastern
European, African, Filipino and South American. They are widely acknowledged
to be hard working, good people. There is no doubt in my mind that these
millions of people are essential to the economic well being of the country
(our indolent permanent underclass won't lift a finger) and I would like to
see them legitimised through a sane immigration policy and a properly
ordered Asylum System. I would like to see control: The right sort of people
let in for the right reasons, whilst the scroungers, gangsters and other
criminals are kept out for the right reasons.
It is this mixture of good and bad that is confusing matters. We desperately
need good immigrants, whilst we also desperately need to damage control the
effects of not so good immigrants.
This issue is contentious, emotive and off topic for this list, so this will
be my last contribution on the matter.
Kind regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 19 June 2003 18:38
To: virus@lucifer.com
[Jonathan] The data is from 1976
[Hermit] True
[Jonathan] and is consequently grossly outdated. Looks like the myth being
touted here is the homo economicus pro-immigration argument is sound
[Hermit] Interesting. Outdated? Outdated = myth? Support your assertions.
Are you really saying that having increased the INS staffing from 8,100 (in
1975) to 35,400 (in 2002) [Source
http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/budgetsummary/btd/1975_2002/btd01ins.pdf ] and
budget from $200 million to $ 2.5 billion in constant 1983 Dollars (against
the CPI) (actually from $ 183 million to $ 5,5 billion) that the problem
with costs associated with "undocumented immigrants" has exaccerbated from
where they contributed to the economy to where they are a nett cost to the
economy? I think that you should cite some data. Please try not to
cherry-pick your sources.
[Jonathan] and that in the 21st century uncontrolled mass immigration is
generally a good thing.
[Hermit] Is this a straw man from you? Please try to show where this
argument was made in my original reply.
Hermit
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This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=285
82>
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #9 on: 2003-06-20 12:31:51 » |
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Oh dear, I thought we were talking about the US, not the desireability of "good" Eastern European, African, Filipino and South American immigrants or the undesireability of "bad" immigrants (from where? China and the Islamic countries are the only significant ommisions I see on the above list). But while looking at the UK, perhaps the situation vis a vis health services is not as "bad" as you imagine: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2543705.stm while perhaps the fraud occuring is not just immigrants http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2963832.stm
As it is, the reason that medical schemes fail is usually because they encompass millions of legitimate trivial claims, not because of fraud or expensive treatments.
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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JD
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RE: virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #10 on: 2003-06-20 14:57:22 » |
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Hi Hermit,
Just for the sake of final clarification - I did not say that immigrants
from specific countries were ipso facto good or bad because of their
nationality. Quite the opposite. There are good and bad from all countries -
yet there is little or no discrimination in the system.
As for the health system, fresh in my mind was an article I read last week:
"Aids-infected asylum seekers 'overwhelm UK hospitals'" [
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F06%2F15%2Fnh
iv15.xml ] . When the doctors start to plead for help it is usually serious.
Regarding that BBC article, I find it absurd that nutty beaurocrats can
refuse treatment to a boy who has gone about things legally, whilst
literally hundreds of thousands pour across the border every year and are
entitled to full benefits that citizens have despite the fact they are
illegal immigrants.
That's Britain for you.
Kind regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 20 June 2003 17:32
To: virus@lucifer.com
Oh dear, I thought we were talking about the US, not the desireability of
"good" Eastern European, African, Filipino and South American immigrants or
the undesireability of "bad" immigrants (from where? China and the Islamic
countries are the only significant ommisions I see on the above list). But
while looking at the UK, perhaps the situation vis a vis health services is
not as "bad" as you imagine: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2543705.stm
while perhaps the fraud occuring is not just immigrants
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2963832.stm
As it is, the reason that medical schemes fail is usually because they
encompass millions of legitimate trivial claims, not because of fraud or
expensive treatments.
Hermit
----
This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus
BBS.
<http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=285
82>
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Kharin
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #11 on: 2003-06-20 16:14:37 » |
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Quote:| "As it is, the reason that medical schemes fail is usually because they encompass millions of legitimate trivial claims, not because of fraud or expensive treatments." |
Quite. Hospitals and sugeries are filled with the ranks of the worried well, to such an extent that the prospect of supply outstripping demand is almost certainly impossible. Immigrants or no immigrants, I am unable to recall any time when the NHS managed to function adequately. As a consequence of this, the service that allegedly prides itself on free access at the point of use periodically ponders rationing at the point of use; the fat, smokers, immigrants, or indeed, anyone who might have the temerity to be ill.
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #12 on: 2003-06-20 19:04:41 » |
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Not to mention the 12 month waiting list for abortions. Shocking is what I call it. 
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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Walter Watts
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Re: virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of
"us"
« Reply #13 on: 2003-06-21 17:49:32 » |
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I liked it better when the licensed physicians ran medicine in the U.S. as opposed to
the unlicensed insurance industry bureaucrats.
When I'm under the knife, I don't want some economically-based, HMO Doc-In-A-Box
looking down on me.
Give me someone like Dr. Jed Hill from the movie "Malice" with Alec Baldwin.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malice, MGM/UA Video, 1993
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The question is, 'Do I have a God complex?'"
"Dr. Kessler says yes."
"Which makes me wonder if this... lawyer... has any idea as to the kind of grades one
has to receive in college to be
accepted at a top medical school. If you have the vaguest clue as to how talented
someone has to be to lead a surgical team.
I have an M.D. from Harvard. I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and
trauma surgery. I have been awarded
citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever,
sick at sea. So I ask you: When someone
goes in to that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their
wife doesn't miscarry, or that their
daughter doesn't bleed to death, or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural
trauma from post-operative shock, who do
you think they're praying to? Now, you go ahead and read your Bible... Dennis, and
you go to your church, and with any luck
you might win the annual raffle, but if you're looking for God, He was in operating
room number two on November seventeenth,
and He doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex? Let me
tell you something. I am God."
Walter
Jonathan Davis wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Regarding that BBC article, I find it absurd that nutty beaurocrats can
> refuse treatment to a boy who has gone about things legally, whilst
> literally hundreds of thousands pour across the border every year and are
> entitled to full benefits that citizens have despite the fact they are
> illegal immigrants.
>
> That's Britain for you.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Jonathan
--
Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
"Reminding you to help control the human population. Have your sexual partner spayed
or neutered."
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Walter Watts
Tulsa Network Solutions, Inc.
No one gets to see the Wizard! Not nobody! Not no how!
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Hermit
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Re:virus: Facts on illegal immigrant health care costs to the rest of "us"
« Reply #14 on: 2003-06-22 02:15:01 » |
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If you think surgeons are gods, consider this...
There's a fighter pilot who dies and goes to heaven. While waiting to check in he notices a large twin coming in high-and-hot to a nearby landing strip. The twin pilot blows the landing--collapses the nose gear, strikes the props, and slews off the runway, but as the fighter pilot runs to help, the twin pilot(?) gets out of the burning plane and walks away. Fifteen minutes later, same scene: another twin, another blown landing and the same guy climbs out of the next trashed twin. The pilot waiting to check in to heaven is amazed, he turns to St. Peter and says "what's the story with that guy flying the twin?" "Oh, that's just Jesus" says St. Peter, "he thinks he's a surgeon."
Hermit
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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