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Joe Dees
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virus: Mind Unfettered
« on: 2003-01-03 02:49:48 »
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veridicus
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Re: virus: Mind Unfettered
« Reply #1 on: 2003-01-04 14:40:29 »
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rhinoceros
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Re:virus: Mind Unfettered
« Reply #2 on: 2003-01-05 07:38:52 »
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[Veridicus]
Beliefs ARE formed by evidence alone.  I do not think that there should really be any honest objection by a religious person here.  I don’t think that faith really precludes evidence.  If you ask any person strongly led by faith, I think that if they are honest they will admit that they have a great deal of evidence for their belief.  The evidence is based more on subjective experiences rather then more objective proofs.  For example: prayers answered, spiritual revelation, spiritual peace, coincidences that seem miraculous, subjective feelings of connection, etc.  These things cannot necessarily be verified by another individual, but work as strong evidence to the person who experiences them in association with faith.  From this perspective, I think Locke’s view of an evidentialist ethics of belief is still strongly compatible.


[rhinoceros]
I also think that the "Mind Unfettered" essay was very good.

As for the rest, go ahead, Veridicus. If anyone objects to your "subjective evidence" for "prayers answered, spiritual revelation, spiritual peace, coincidences that seem miraculous and subjective feelings of connection", you can always tell them that was not  objective evidence -- that was subjective evidence, so objections do not apply.

Just curious: How does this approach fare when you talk with people who have their own different "subjective evidence", such as a spiritual revelation for someone's glorious earthly destination? And how do you talk to other people about that?
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veridicus
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Re:virus: Mind Unfettered
« Reply #3 on: 2003-01-05 21:14:13 »
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Kharin
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Re:virus: Mind Unfettered
« Reply #4 on: 2003-01-06 06:58:40 »
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Quote:
"If anyone objects to your "subjective evidence" for "prayers answered, spiritual revelation, spiritual peace, coincidences that seem miraculous and subjective feelings of connection", you can always tell them that was not  objective evidence -- that was subjective evidence, so objections do not apply."

Isn't that a form of category error? The evidence of subjective eperience may speak to evidence of the existence of said subjective experience, but it does not speak to the objective existence of any deity. Particularly as said subjective experience (particularly spiritual revelation and spiritual peace) could as easily be described as being noetic in character i.e. generated by the brain itself. Hence the similarity between the description of certain mystical experiences and that of certain narcotic experiences (bearing in mind that substances like peyote or even incense have frequently been used in religious rites). 

The other problem, as you indicated, with subjective experience is that it is not especially shareable, communicable or indeed testable. It stands only in so far as it is valid for individual experience.

BTW I seem to recall Sheldrake asserting the psychic powers of certain pets on the basis of miraculous coincidence :-)
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