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Fritz
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Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this political
« on: 2008-08-16 18:01:58 » |
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And so it begins .....
Sigh
Fritz
McCain, Obama & Rick Warren - The “Purpose-Driven Debate”
Source: Cristian Science Monitor
Author: Jimmy Orr
Date: 08.16.08
Whose side is God on? Although that probably won’t be determined tonight, we will see Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this political season.
Brought together by the best-selling author and pastor of the fourth largest church in the U.S., pastor Rick Warren will talk to both candidates tonight for about an hour each.
The focus is on faith. Specifically, as Monitor colleague Jane Lampman reported earlier this week, Mr. Warren’s questions will focus on how the candidates lead and make decisions and will cover five topics: leadership, stewardship, worldview, compassion issues, and their vision for America.
The format is somewhat similar to a game show with Warren playing the part of Wink Martindale. One candidate in a soundproof bubble (or room) while the other candidate is on stage. Obama is up first and then McCain. The order was determined by a coin-flip.
They will be asked the same questions and their personal life is on the table because “character matters,” Warren said.
“I’m going to ask them questions about character, competence, about values, vision, virtue, about their convictions in leadership, about their experience,” Warren told the Christian Broadcasting Network yesterday.
Warren told the New York Times that a typical question could be “What’s the most difficult decision you’ve had to make, and how did you make it?”
Warren said to expect questions on abortion and marriage too.
“The person who says well I’m going to put my faith on the shelf and not let it affect my decisions as President is either lying or they’re ignorant because you can’t do it,” he said. “Every one of your decisions you make is based on your world view. So I’m going to ask them about abortion. I’m going to ask them about the definition of marriage, but I’m also going to ask them more than that in that third section on “World View.”
How did this event get put together? Warren just called them on his cell phone.
The event will start at 8pm on CNN, FOX and CSPAN. It will also be streamed live on saddlebackcivilforum.com .
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Hermit
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Re:Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this politi
« Reply #1 on: 2008-08-16 18:55:25 » |
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The Faith that moves - stomaches.
A good time if ever there was one to destroy your television (if it has survived this far)....
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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MoEnzyme
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Can I add that I prayed a lot?
« Reply #2 on: 2008-08-16 22:39:26 » |
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Much thanks to Fritz and Hermit for kicking this one off.
I watched the whole thing and then promptly killed my TV so as not to be infected by the talking heads. So in this pristine state, I start my review of the event.
Apparently this event was set up as a big ass-kissing of the religious crowd by the two candidates. In terms of the two candidates following this format, Barack Obama was clearly in the zone, giving very thoughtful, personal and nuanced insight into his thinking. If following the format and immediate audience were the criteria, Obama should have won this comparison hands down. If any remotely thoughtful religious thinker would give Obama the time of day to hear him out, this was it and he performed in stellar fashion.
However, I think McCain made much better use of this forum for political purposes which was the ultimate measure of it no matter the agenda of the religious hosts. Where Obama took several minutes to get in depth and personal on the religious issues, McCain never failed to hit the Religious Right applause line within the first minute if not few seconds of each answer, and as such managed to cut through all of the questions Obama answered in half the amount of time, which was even commented on with surprise by the otherwise Obama-friendly moderator. He shouldn't have been the least bit surprised.
Where Obama went into agonizing detail about faith based initiatives, the "right to life", etc. . . . and I might add as a free-thinker I personally felt comforted by his thoughfulness and agonizing . . . but when it comes to the soundbite religion that is America, I think McCain stole the show. Even as he failed to provide much significant introspection on moral issues, he did manage after one self-favorable account of his POW experience, to add as an afterthought "Can add that I prayed a lot?", almost as if he had forgotten the focus of this particular forum. It really didn't matter since he succeeded in feeding the crowd and the camera the kind of soundbite morality that consistently trumps actual thought in the popular media
As I say it, I'm sure it sounds like McCain is a perfunctory religious conservative, but as he delivered his concise soundbite responses he managed to rally the live audience to many more quick-applause responses, and likely fed the right wing media with many more lively soundbites than his more philosophical, personally revealing and thoughtful opponent.
For religious purposes Obama was clearly the more thoughtful one, but for political purposes, McCain nailed this one . . . I'm sad to say . . .
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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MoEnzyme
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Can I add that I prayed a lot?
« Reply #3 on: 2008-08-16 22:54:19 » |
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PS. I would add that on issues of faith-based initiatives and just about every other issue, I like Obama's answers MUCH better, however, in terms of other voters who aren't as nerdy as myself on these things, Obama needs to learn to get to the point much faster. McCain needed to prove that he was in tune with the religious right, and somehow he managed to establish that in about half the time that Obama spent wooing them in the first place. In my own personal imaginary country, Obama is beating the hell out of McCain, but in this real one its way to close for my comfort.
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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Fritz
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Re:Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this politi
« Reply #4 on: 2008-08-17 13:59:28 » |
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Quote:| [MoEnzyme]<snip>Obama is beating the hell out of McCain, but in this real one its way to close for my comfort.<snip> |
Thanks for the review Mo, that was light years better then anything I got on the media this morning.
We had one of the grandkids this weekend, so my TV was showing "Pee-Wee'sBig Adventure" an interesting counterpoint to the debate and
Quote:| [Hermit]<snip>A good time if ever there was one to destroy your television (if it has survived this far)....<snip> |
I still have a functional TV, though I'm not sure Pee-Wee makes the world a better place for a 3 year old, but running as an independent I think he might get some traction. 
Cheers
Fritz
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Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains -anon-
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Hermit
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Re:Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this politi
« Reply #5 on: 2008-08-20 01:35:29 » |
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[ Hermit : The main reason McCain was so much better was that he wasn't in a cone of silence and didn't have to work alone. He just had to lie about it. I can't work up a special sweat about his lying to a pastor, but I do think that his lying to the audience and his stupidity in lying where he could so easily be caught does say volumes. If he were in court, he would now be impeached. But of course, impeachment is out of fashion in the USA.]
Senator John Complain
Source: Huffington Post
Authors: Eric Schmeltzer
Dated: 2008-08-19
Refer Also:
Wow.
So, Senator McCain goes on national television and lies to a pastor, pretending that he was in a "cone of silence" holding room during the Saddleback Forum where he couldn't hear the questions that he would be asked that were also being posed to Senator Obama, gets called on it, and then lodges an official complaint with NBC News because Andrea Mitchell was one of the many reporters to report on it?
To quote Grandpa Simpson, the Senator's alter ego, "Oh, Bitch Bitch Bitch..."
First off, let me tackle this insane notion that Andrea Mitchell is someone in the bag for Senator Obama, because she dared to report on what was happening. Anyone who watches MSNBC knows that Mitchell has a virtual bat-phone to Carly Fiorina, the Senior McCain advisor, and has her or other McCain surrogates on many more times a day than Obama people. Secondly, it wasn't even a month ago that Mitchell was under heavy criticism from the left for making the contention that Senator Obama was asked "fake questions" while in the Middle East. I don't say any of this to complain about Mitchell, just to point out that she's managed to make both sides angry, which, to me, says that she's been playing it down the middle.
Secondly, let's note here that the McCain campaign OPENLY ADMITS that he wasn't in any "cone of silence" at the forum, but does not say whether the candidate was passed on any info, on his way to the event. (Oh, and by the way, if you dare ask, the campaign will say you're questioning a former POW, which is relevant... how?)
Finally, let's get back to the real issue here -- John McCain lied to and embarrassed a pastor on national television. Pastor Warren made clear in his opening, and reiterated to CNN's Rick Sanchez, that he was under the belief that Senator McCain had abided by the agreed upon rules, and was in his so-called "cone of silence" when the show started. McCain let Warren believe that, until afterwords. That Warren is trying to salvage the legitimacy of the forum by giving McCain a pass is irrelevant.
The fact still is that Senator McCain and his campaign lied to a pastor, by agreeing to rules and breaking them, and not telling him until after the fact.
Sorry, but that's news and deserves at least a mention, so those who viewed the event know all the facts surrounding it.
Senator Complain's whining not withstanding, of course.
[i] [ Hermit : And the fact that that doyen of neocon sleaze, Bill Kristol is trying to cover up the mess should maybe get a mention too. See, "Bill Kristol Quietly Revises Column On 'Cone Of Silence'."
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With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg, 1999
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MoEnzyme
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Re:Barack Obama and John McCain on stage together for the first time this politi
« Reply #6 on: 2008-08-20 13:58:09 » |
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I personally don't care too much whether John McCain got a preview of the questions or not. Frankly, I don't think it matters much for his performance. If indeed he got a preview of the questions, the only way I think it could possibly have helped him would have been to wipe out any excess hesitation in his answers. In any case, I think he still would have had a much more rapid and to-the point responses than Obama. Most of McCain's answers were really no-brainers once he understood the question, which is how neo-con memes organize themselves within the host. Steven Colbert could have done it even better than McCain with no preview and absolute spontenaity, if you really want to see a master at work, but the effect is pretty much the same . . . which is why even (Mc)W Bush can fake average intelligence in between his alcoholic/cocaine hazes. (Remember the great Colbert revelation that truthiness comes from the gut and not the brain). Neo-Con memes can protect many of the dumbest of hosts from social ridicule, although honestly we haven't tried them out on the mentally retarded or other primates yet. Perhaps a baboon or one of our Down Syndrome specimens may yet supplant "El Rushbo" at a fraction of the pay whenever he's ready to retire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
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I will fight your gods for food,
Mo Enzyme
(consolidation of handles: Jake Sapiens; memelab; logicnazi; Loki; Every1Hz; and Shadow)
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