From: Mermaid (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 20:25:46 MDT
[henson][...]Those who gravitate to "places" like CoV tend to be people who can't find a lot of local social support.
[Mermaid]The simple version of it being that the CoV can give me social support...:) gotcha.
[henson]Part of the reason the murder rate in Western culture is so low compared to life in tribes is that we can expel disruptive people from social groups.
[Mermaid]I am not sure I agree with that. Can you back that up? I am also not so sure that tribes are less effective in expelling disruptive people from social groups. The law and the legal system, the western version of the tribal council, has loopholes like a slice of swiss cheese. I'd argue that its exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.
[henson]I remember hearing about an impressive case where someone had deeply disrupted the "peace and love" hippy community in Tucson in the late 60s. The community coped with the problem in the traditional way; i.e., she was killed. (It is rare for woman to be that disruptive, but it can happen.)
[Mermaid]ahem
[henson]Unfortunately enough disruptive types are not nearly so much rational as _rationalizing_. I have discussed before the really perverse psychological trap where people feel rewarded by attention for disruptive behavior. This
is a problem in real life, especially with small children, but partly because of the high multiplier, and partly because of the missing real time emotional feedback, it is far more of a community-destroying problem on the net.
[Mermaid]At this point, CoV's active membership is so tiny that the sheriff can handle it. On the other hand, the tedious processes like DiP, disownment etc are very very unpleasant especially because of the language used. A glance at the material tells you that it is lifted straight off religious material or legal texts with certain words substituted.
[Mermaid]What are the "church" activities? Disruption of church activities is something that needs 'discipline'. When we have no clear idea about "church" activities, what are we disciplining? What is it that remains as our 'activities' in the church? The bbs activities and the irc chat(some of which..the scheduled chats,esp, are not casual). This is so aimless and 'fun' that the topics is not really different from any other online forum where, btw, you are not disciplined. What are disciplined about anyways? Choice of words? Languge? Political inclinations? Racist attitudes? Personal preferences? And when it doesnt concern church activities(which we are not clear about anyways), why should people be disciplined about it?
[henson]My life has been massively disrupted by a cult that *trains* people to be malicious, mean and nasty. I am *not kidding.* Google TR-L outflow. [...] If you think you need them, I can give you explicit instructions on how to
get them on your case. (You would gain considerable merit by diverting part of the cult's attention from others.) I can also point you to a certain news group . . . .
[Mermaid]First you mention about the woman being killed in Az and now you are ready to give me explicit instructions to divert cult's attention from others. I'll bake cookies for you!!! Get off my back!!
>[Mermaid]What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals.
[henson]I don't think this is logical since there is a conceptual overlap in what people believe and what they have as goals.
[Mermaid]I agree. So we need to figure out what the goals are. To compete against religions is our stated goal, but *how* do we compete? We dont know. We havent done anything. When we embark on that and *then* when someone becomes disruptive, I'll submit to DiP and 'confrom'. Until then, I am merely in the company of people who share my beliefs(to a certain extent). I dont think thats enough to coerce, however gently, conformity re 'acceptable behaviour'.
[henson]Perhaps you could provide a few examples. I can certainly think of counter examples.
[Mermaid]Examples of what?
[henson]Volunteer "tribes" like CoV are just that. Too many (and that's a small number) unpleasant experiences and people pick up and leave.
[Mermaid]Its called a shakedown and is very useful.
[henson]Solving the disruption problem isn't sufficient, but
it is necessary step in the right direction.
[Mermaid]Well..we had JoeDees and then metahuman who were subject to the disciplinary process. It was the 'Sheriff's decision. The proposed DiP involves too many people and imo, very suspect in terms of the process. Disruption in the CoV, as I explained above, is limited now to ..well..etiquette. Noone is giving CoV bad publicity(we are not well known), nobody is misrepresenting CoV(we dont have a public voice), nobody is embezzeling cash(we are piss poor)...I can go on..but that would only reflect how pathetically limited we are by our own devices(DiP, for example..which is only going to shut people up more..esp because of the fear of saying the wrong thing...there is already a system to get rid of the misbehaving ones..*because* it is simple..i.e. you cross a line, you will be silenced..period. end of story...so people are unlikely to abuse the system...not to mention that its quicker and more efficient....you see, people dont have the options to wave their flapdoodle around and get away with murder..a ver
y easy scenario with the DiP...as its a council..anyone person can bring someone down if he doesnt like that person..or save a real troublemaker's ass if he is a good friend..i.e. abuse of a system..all this for net etiquette seems a little excessive...) when it comes to real action in the real world.
---- This message was posted by Mermaid to the Virus 2003 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=display;threadid=29437> --- To unsubscribe from the Virus list go to <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Oct 03 2003 - 20:28:20 MDT