From: L' Ermit (lhermit@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jan 15 2002 - 07:25:44 MST
[Hermit] Sheesh Yash, don't you read your own posts? We know you don't read
mine - this row has already been well hoed. Asserting something doesn't make
it so.
[Yash lied and wriggles] No, when you asked me about it, I specifically told
you that I cannot vouch for the authenticity of such a thing. This is
clearly stated and stored in the archives for all to see.
[Hermit responds] My question was for substantiation of your claim after
showing why, despite your energetic punctuation, the claim, on mathematical
and historical grounds, was likely false. You responded that you had the
reference in your files, couldn't validate the authenticity (but of course
the claim to an alleged reference countered that), and that I should examine
Vedic Mathematics by Sri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaj - which
interestingly is where this claim is made... You followed this up with a new
set of Vedic Maths claims and announced that you were eagerly waiting for
another book on the topic.
[Yash lied and wriggles] The ode is mentioned in the Vedic Mathematics book,
though. The author doesn't claim authorship of either this ode, nor the
encoding, nor the gematric system. He doesn't mention any date either. He
doesn't say whether the ode is in the Vedas.
[Hermit] Bullshit!
<quote>
In order to help the pupil to memorize the material studied and assimilated,
they [Hermit: The supposed "Vedic mathematicians"] made it a general rule of
practice to write even the most technical and abstruse textbooks in sutras
or in verse (which is so much easier-even for the children-to memorize). And
this is why we find not only theological, philosophical, medical,
astronomical, and other such treatises, but even huge dictionaries in
Sanskrit verse! So from this standpoint, they used verse, sutras and codes
for lightening the burden and facilitating the work (by versifying
scientific and even mathematical material in a readily assimilable form)!
...
By a particular choice of consonants and vowels one can compose a poetic
hymn with double or triple meanings. Here is an actual sutra of spiritual
content, as well as secular mathematical significance.
gopi bhagya madhuvrata
srngiso dadhi sandhiga
khala jivita khatava
gala hala rasandara
While this verse is a type of petition to Krishna, when learning it one can
also learn the value of pi/10 (i.e. the ratio of the circumference of a
circle to its diameter divided by 10) to 32 decimal places. It has a
self-contained master-key for extending the evaluation to any number of
decimal places.
</quote>
Source: Jagadguru Swami Shri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja, Vedic
Mathematics, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1988.
Q.E.D. fuckwit.
[Hermit] He makes the assertion that it is so, without antecedent and with
subsequent - except amongst his devout followers - where it had the desired
effect. When this is pointed out to these self-same followers, they defend
it by pointing to the same silly guru's "missing books". How do you differ
from any other of his silly followers?
[Yash lies and wriggles] I never, not once said I thought Indian invented
that encryption and stored that value of PI at a very ancient time. You did.
[Hermit quotes and comments on Yash referenced below] The same exists within
the Vedic tradition [Hermit: are you claiming that the "Vedic tradition" is
not Indian? and not "ancient"?] whereby a small four-sentence ode to
Krishna, whose meaning is a prayer to him, in fact [Hermit: When you say "in
fact" do you mean "not in fact"?] stores the value of pi/10 [Hermit: I agree
that you said PI/10, rather than PI] to 32 decimal places [Hermit: Is this
not "that value of PI"?] when each syllable is converted into its
corresponding numerical value in the Vedic gematria system [Hermit: What
"Vedic gematria system"?].
[Hermit] Did your mother never teach you "Be sure your lies will catch you
out?" Seems that you mother let you down badly, she should have washed your
mouth out with soap and then you wouldn't need to be embarrassed as an
adult...
[Yash lies and wriggles] What I said was that one of the examples of what I
want to do in the language I'm envisioning, is visible in this ode. And the
ode is mentioned by the author is his book.
[Hermit] You said "Things like what I evoke are known under several names in
esoteric circles... The same exists... So unless one is initiated..." Not
"an example", "The same exists," but if not "initiated", you won't
understand it. Get a brain, fuckwit.
[Yash lies and wriggles] I never claimed to know at what date the encoding
was done, nor a precise PI/10 value to 32 decimal places was discovered.
[Hermit] You said, "The same exists within the Vedic tradition". If you are
claiming that you don't know when the Vedic tradition was, I'll call you a
liar again... because the next day you referred to "ancient Indian
Mathematicians." Or are you confusing "ancient" and "modern"? Fuckwit!
[Hermit] What the fuck did you think you meant when you said "in fact stores
the value of pi/10 to 32 decimal places"? What does "in fact" imply to you?
Fuckwit!
[Yash lies and wriggles] You did that all by yourself because you were
intent on tackling the theological argument, not me.
[Hermit] I have appended my reply. Where the fuck do you think you saw a
"theological argument"? Point to it. Cite it. Quote it. Fuckwit!
[Yash lies and wriggles] I couldn't care less. For all I care, the
encryption could have been done the day before he wrote the book, but it
still inspires me to do the same kind of thing in a new language.
[Hermit] And all your silly argument and wriggling and further citations of
so called "Vedic maths" and supposed "Vedic astronomy" [Hermit: No such
thing, they were astlogers] etc, etc, ad nauseam, demonstrate that you
could care less, or you would have picked up your turd and walked.
[Hermit] I doubt you are smart enough to fool even the people who normally
swallow the turds of anyone asserting themselves to be a guru. I suggest you
find a different line of work that doesn't require mental capability. You
shouldn't be rude to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, his intellect, is far stronger
than yours, though the stench of piety may be the same (or is that the turd
you have concealed up your sleeve?).
[Yash splutters and wriggles] But I could see clearly that you were starting
to reject anything having to do with the Vedas and/or Indian mathematics,
which as I said previously is fallacious thinking.
[Hermit] As anyone else in this channel with the possible exception of the
Mermaid will tell you, I am rejecting that which is patently or probably
untrue. The source and period is irrelevant. I apply the the tests of the
scientific method to <em>everything</em>. I don't omit it for India just
because they have a lot of silly fakers (some hailing from France).
Below are verbatim transcripts from the archive to establish context.
This is exactly the relevant portion of what you said:
[RE: virus: Astronomy/maths tongue + Sarcasm++, Yash, Sat 2001-12-29 09:42]
<quote>
Things like what I evoke are known under several names in esoteric circles.
One notable area is the Jewish tradition where Rabbi use several techniques
to extract knowledge not immediately available from ancient scriptures. For
instance, the use of Gematria. There are also other techniques like the
Notariqon and the Temurah.
The same exists within the Vedic tradition whereby a small four-sentence ode
to Krishna, whose meaning is a prayer to him, in fact stores the value of
pi/10 to 32 decimal places when each syllable is converted into its
corresponding numerical value in the Vedic gematria system. It is also said
that this very verse contains a master-key to expand the number of pi
decimal values indefinitely (!?!).
So unless one is initiated into the notion of such a thing I describe, one
would have the utmost difficulty in understanding it.</quote>
This is exactly how I replied:
["virus: Weird claims about PI - Ping Yash", Hermit, Sat 2001-12-29 16:23]
<quote>
Hermit, who is interested in the history of technology, notes that the Vedas
have been used as the basis for all kinds of weird claims, but that this is
a new one on me - which, if true, will necessitate the rewriting of a lot of
mathematical history.
But is it true?
Given that the Indians themselves do not make this claim (recognizing the
priest scholar Baudhayana as their first "mathematician" (in around 800
BCE)), and given that the Harrapa did not realize the nature of PI at all,
as in the Sulbasutra (around 300 BCE) (in turn developed from the Harrapan
Shatapatha Brahmana and Taittiriya Samhita)) the ratio of the area of a
circle to the square of its radius is given as 3.088 and the ratio of the
circumference to the diameter is given as 3.2, making it clear that they
imagined that these were "different" constants (and dreadfully approximate
results too), I would suggest that the claim would, on its face appear to be
false.
An additional indicator of the falsity of this claim would be the "standard"
Indian approximation to PI of 62832/20000 and the attribution to the
Keralese mathematicians (Madhava (1400 CE) et al) of the transition from
finite to infinite progressions.
So, as this claim runs counter to everything I (and others) know about the
history of PI please provide details and expansion of these claims,
including a reference to the verse and gematria. (If your reply is in
Sanskrit please mail it directly to me as a graphic).
Regards
Hermit
PS Mathematical historians consider that the first time that PI was
determined to over 30 digits was by van Ceulen in the late 1500s.
</quote>
And here is how you responded initially:
["RE: virus: Weird claims about PI - Ping Yash", Yash, Sat 2001-12-29 18:14]
</quote>
Herm, I don't have the reference handy right now, although I must have saved
it in my files somewhere. I can't claim a very high level of authenticity
for that anecdote, but the principle itself is known.
I urge you to do a netsearch. I also recommend you check out a very small
book called Vedic Mathematics by Sri Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaj.
>From there you will get a few hints on how he managed to find 19 aphorisms
in Sanskrit by which all sorts of mathematical feat may be performed. And
may I say, much more efficiently than the usual occidental maths we've all
been taught.
The Sanskrit Gematria is also described in some detail in there.
I am also eagerly awaiting "The Holy Science" by Yogananda's Guru which
describes many of the astronomical data stored in ancient scriptures.
It's good you mention ancient Indian Mathematicians, because many of the
theorems supposedly ascribed as discoveries to Greek searches by the
obviously biased Occidental history books are in fact re-discoveries of
things found by Indian a few hundred years earlier.
And even then, maybe re-discoveries of earlier traditions.
</quote>
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