On 15 Aug 2002 at 12:37, Hermit wrote:
>
> [Hermit] Having infinite time on your hands, I'm sure you can continue
> forever. Having said all of the following before, I don't have the
> time to repeat it and don't have the expectation you will learn from
> it or attempt to challenge it.
>
> [Joe Dees] And in most of those wars, it was Israel who was initially
> attacked; now you're criticizing a country you dislike for having the
> temerity and unmitigated gall to effectively defend itself. Sadly,
> increasingly typical of you.
>
> [Hermit] I suggest you read some history. Taste the wild side. All
> history is a story, and I think that you have heard only one side of
> it. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/index_zion1.html.
> This is from a Palestinian perspective. The British, the League of
> Nations and the members of the United Nations at the relevant times
> reached different conclusions from those you hold. As the perspective
> of time assists us in seeing the situation more clearly, aided by
> Jewish biographies and testimony which dehagiographies the Israeli
> perspective, it becomes apparent that most of the "history" of Israel,
> ancient and modern, is mythical.
>
> [Hermit] For example, beginning in 1948, when the British threw in
> their mandate due to Israeli terrorism, the Israelis had a hard core
> of locally skilled terrorists and a large number of experienced
> soldiers fresh from the Allied armies. The death toll for Israel was
> some 4'000 military and 2'000 civilians. They killed some 15'000 Arabs
> and Palestinians and drove some 900'000 Palestinians into exile.
> (Source "Resort to Arms : International and Civil Wars 1816-1980",
> Melvin Small & Joel David Singer, 1982) also
> http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat4.htm Don't like what I have to
> say, what this site has to say, how about what Yitzhak Rabin's widow
> said, "I have doubt about how much terrorism can be uprooted, we were
> also terrorists once and they didn't uproot us and we went on dealing
> in terrorist activities. Despite all the efforts of all of the British
> army in the land, we went on with terrorism." (Reuters, 1997-07-11) Is
> she also anti-Israel?
>
No (I'm fully aware of the Stern Gang), but out of that terror (which was
mainly directed against the Brits) and a UN mandate arose a
democratic nation at peace with some of its neighbors (Egypt, Jordan)
that now finds itself defending itself against same. What is doubtful is
whether the territory currently practicing terror (Gaza and the West
Bank) can itself, even with a UN mandate, establish a democratic nation
at peace with its neighbor Israel.
>
> [Hermit] From the beginning, Israel, sometimes against American
> resistance, more usually with American assistance, developed into an
> art form the ability to provoke their neighbors into war on killing
> grounds from which few escaped. "I know how at least 80% of all the
> incidents with Syria started. We were sending a tractor to the
> demilitarized zone and we knew that the Syrians will shoot. If they
> did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the
> Syrians finally got upset and start shooting. Then we employed
> artillery, and later also the air-force... I did that... and Yitzhak
> Rabin did that, when he was there..." -- Moshe Dayan in a 05/1997
> revelation. Or "In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army
> concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was
> really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We
> decided to attack him." -- Menachem Begin in The New York Times,
> August 21, 1982. So much for Israel being "initially attacked! ."
> These wars resulted in the lopsided death tolls which I reflected
> earlier. Rules of engagement did not apply. This was, after all, "Holy
> War." And we have all read your opinion of ideologists. Why do you
> think this applies only to the Muslim? After all, the Palestinian and
> the Jew share a very similar background.
>
When you can see several nations around you all amssing troops for a
coordinated simultaneous attack from all sides, it is suicidal lunacy to
wait until it is actually launched. However, just such a suicide on the
part of Israel is what you fervently and zealously desire, and you will
criticize anything BUT that until you wear your fingers down to your
elbows.
>
> [Hermit] You have made a lot of statements about Saddam Hussein and
> Kuwait. "Never before" you thundered. But on December 14, 1981, the
> Israeli Knesset unilaterally annexed the Golan Heights in clear
> contravention of international law. Why was Israel not placed under
> sanctions?
>
Because Syria had been employing the Golan Heights as an elevated
platform from which to attack Israel. Kuwait never did that to Iraq. And
the Israelis are amenable to negotiating the return of the Golan Heights
to Syria, provided they receive concrete guarantees that such attacks
would not be repeated in the future. I also note that the Golan Heights
was only a small part of Syria, while Saddam Hussein gobbled up the
entirety of Kuwait in one military gulp.
>
> Rabin, while prime minister publicly announced his policy
> to crush the 1987/88 Palestinian uprising using "force, might and
> beatings." Numerous witnesses in Israeli courts have confirmed this.
> Is this not terrorism against a people?
>
And what were the uprisers themselves doing all this time, just twiddling
their uprising thumbs?
>
> [Hermit] The very fact that you can take what I see as Jonathans
> frenzied rantings, invalid assertions and unpleasant innuendo and
> assume that they form a rational counter to anything, should again
> tell you something about your current analytic capacity.
>
Your characterization of his posts informs me as to your utter lack of
same.
>
>I didn't
> respond to Jonathan because while I can respond to unreason with
> reasoned argument, this doesn't mean that I have the time to deal
> with the jibes of fools for no possible reward.
>
Does that mean that I should cease answering your emotional,
extremist and ludicrous posts?
>
>The only reason you
> have received so much time from me in the last while is because you
> were once a great thinker, and I had rather hoped that there was some
> way to see it brought back.
>
You measure goodness or greatness by the degree of agreement with
your own posiitions; that is the very definition of subjectivity.
>
> [Hermit] Now I simply regret having wasted so many precious hours.
>
I, on the other hand, do not regret that your attempts to transmogrify
this list into an arm of Hamas and the Baa'th Party were wasted.
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=26109>
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