On 11 Aug 2002 at 16:53, Hermit wrote:
>
> [Joe Dees 5] <snip a lot of shit>
>
If this kinda action was taken for you, Hermit, we'd never hear from you at
all...
>
> [Hermit 6] I wasn't writing to you darling. I know that you are not
> listening, so I'm not wasting my time. But seeing as you want to keep
> making invalid assertions about me, I'll respond for the benefit of
> others.
>
> [Hermit 4] While your comment on Joes sudden decision to reject
> generally recognized sources as biased when they disagree with him,
> yet cite the same sources when it suits him is valid, the rest of your
> criticism is not.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] actually, this is exactly what you did after my original
> cross-post about 600 collaborator deaths, and what you continued to do
> until rhinocerous discovered a document with bona fides that even you
> could not succcessfully belittle.
>
> [Hermit 6] Do I have to explain it again. You claimed that 50% of
> Palestinian deaths were caused by the murder of collaborators. I
> posted numbers from various sources (PRCS, HRW, Amnesty International)
> refuting this – all of which you rejected as biased without providing
> reasons. Rhinoceros posted a B'tselem article about the first intifada
> (which we were not discussing). You raptured effusively ecstatic,
> praised the article to the hilt, and asserted that the 600 or so
> deaths mentioned there proved your contention that 50% of Palestinian
> casualties were caused by Palestians killing one another off. I posted
> a refutation based on numbers from B'tselem and HRW, whereupon you
> proceeded to tear the organizations apart and explained why they were
> biased and you didn't believe them. I pointed out the discrepancy
> between comparing numbers from the first intifada with the second and
> you danced. I pointed out that you were comparing oranges and apples
> and impeaching youre own sources!
> and you weaseled. I gave up trying to convince you. Everyone else
> could see you were blowing shit from your ears. It didn't take me to
> make it self-evident.
>
The figures (collaborator deaths) that were included in the article
rhinocerous posted exceeded 900, and were only up until 1995. The
original article I submitted was indeed half (600 out od 1200), but I made no
claims that such a ratio was subsequently maintained, although I indicated
that it was likely that it could have been. As it turns out, the comprehensive
study catalogued 50% more deaths than I originally reported. Then you
tried to play chronological games (we must dismiss that period and only
look at the one Hermit wishes to peruse) and not look at the aggregate; I
wouldn't play. After which you began posting all sorts of bizarre and
nonsensical propaganda from dubious and marginal sources and having
nothing to do with the olriginal contention, and were justly laughed right off
your podiun.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] Your diatribes consist mainly in condemnation of the
> 'uncivilized Israelis' and cheerleading for the 'civilized
> Palestinians".
>
> [Hermit 6] You are a liar and I challenge you to find one place where
> I have claimed that the Palestinians are any more "civilized" than the
> Israelis. Of course, the Israelis are as I proved in my response to
> Jonathan, not by any modern Western definition civilized at all.
> Neither for that matter are the Palestinians these days. But the
> Palestinians have a much better claim in law, in blood and in equity
> than the Israelis ever will have.
>
Wouldn't that very claim imply that you considered them to be more
civilized - that is, possessing better legal claims with which to justify suicide
bombings of civilian children than the Israelis possessed with which to
justify their attempts to interdict such actions?
>
> [Hermit 4] Perhaps. He would probably have, as I am often tempted,
> said "Fuck it, these assholes are not with responding to" and ignored
> it. Particularly if he had been called names.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] Exactly what Bill Roh seems to have done with respect to
> Hermit.
>
> [Hermit 6] Nope. The saga is visible in the first few pages of the
> Current News section of "Serious Business." I suggest you check it out
> before making up fantasies. Bill got pissed off because, seemingly
> like you, once his patriotism button was pushed, he couldn't argue a
> case for shit. Israel had apparently done such a good job of
> programming him, that he saw negative comments on Israel and the US
> news as being "anti-American," apparently forgetting that the US once
> saw the ability to makes such comments as valuable. He resented the
> fact that I was prepared to take the time to demonstrate that that
> Israel was at the least unpleasant and uncivilized and that support
> for Israel and current US policies made the situation worse. He
> asserted that this did not fairly represent the CoV and insisted that
> I should write "both sides of the story". As I refused to do that, and
> he couldn't be bothered to take the time to do so himself, he departed
> in high dudgeon, having rejected offers to attempt to reach
> resolution.
>
Hermit refused to write both sides of the story? Imagine that!
>
> [Joe Dees 5] Actually, you have been, on this list at least, a
> gargantuan contributor to a drumbeat flood of subsequently discredited
> propagandistic rantings, reflexively seeing every fact and opinion
> that is not skewed to your Orwellian extreme as bigoted and ignorant.
>
> [Hermit 6] Unsubstantiated uninvited and unpaid opinion Joe. And worth
> what all such opinion is.
>
Any reader of this list has had it verified before their very eyes, and by you.
>
> [Hermit 4] Brian Magee missed a point here. Popper always chose his
> arguments and his opponents carefully. He would walk out of a room
> rather than argue with fools.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] As Bill Roh did, apparently.
>
> [Hermit 6] Repeating yourself now? Anyone can choose to leave. Or
> stay. The CoV will continue. It doesn't depend on individuals.
> Attempting to make me feel guilty about this, will not work. And
> asserting that, “you drove him away”, will not persuade anyone with
> the ability to think. Try another tack. This one smells funny.
>
Just what kind of stench do you think Bill could no longer hold his nose and
ignore?
>
> [Joe Dees 5] When you begin to pile up your straw men and red herrings
> like so much cordwood, it is surpassingly obvious who is the prime
> malefactor
>
> [Hermit 6] In your opinion. But when you end each argument calling
> people names, telling lies, impeaching your own sources, making
> disparaging remarks instead of presenting facts, then I draw my own
> conclusions, which differ from yours - and I'm sure others do the
> same. The difference between you and I seems to be that I don't care
> what others think - and you, quite evidently do.
>
Is that why you use vicious and inflammatory epithets like 'bigot' in your
message headers? Because you're above all that, and after all, the header
is above the message?
>
> [Hermit 4] I read it. I spent a day responding to it. I hope you read
> the response. Judging by the fact that you seem to uncritically
> singing in the "Israel good - Palestinian bad" chorus, I doubt it will
> do any good, but you might find challenging your preconceptions
> interesting.
>
> [Joe Dees 5] It would be interesting to see if Hermit could ever
> challenge his 'Palestinians good - Israelis bad" preconceptions, but I
> doubt if he could muster the mustardseed of objectivity required to
> even begin.
>
> [Hermit 6] Once Joe Dees could have seen that the question of "good"
> and "bad" was largely irrelevant when it comes to matters of state.
> Even "bad” and "worse," as applies in the Israeli situation, doesn’t
> matter much. The questions have to be addressed as matters of equity,
> law and effectiveness - as good and bad depends on a perspective,
> which is not present. Joe Dees, in common with many Americans appears
> to be so tied up in moral agonizing that he has lost sight of the fact
> that any interactions which do not achieve those objectives are doomed
> to fail. And usually, men being what they are, this results in people
> dying to no purpose.
>
Well, any semblance of balanced perspective is manifestly absent from
your bloviating rantings. This whole thing reminds me of a fellow named
Mike Lorrey and a few of nis droogies who attempted to turn the Extropy list
into an arm of the NRA. Finally, the list administrators created another list
called EXI-freedom in which these radical progun extremists could sing to
the choir about how everything would be fine, dandy and hunkydory if only
Americans were as universally and heavily armed as Afghanis. This sort of
thing happened right here, too, when Everett Allie tried to make this list
Hallian AnalYtic MetaPhysics central, and was given his own venue, which
prectically nobody visited, in which to dump his pseudoscientific spam.
Perhaps it is time to create Hermit's Cave, where people madly fulminate
about the great Satan America and mutter about dark global conspiracies
to suppress the compassionate and merciful benevolence of Shari'a Law
and Islamic manifest destiny in the name of the proverbial and dreaded
New World Order Illuminati who continuously attempt to subvert the global
realization of the Allah-preforeordained Divine Plan with infidel heresies
such as freedom, democracy and basic gender-blind human rights. I'm
sure that Scatflinger would sign right up for a good long yammer. and
maybe some others, just for the tabloid humor comic relief.
>
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
> <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;thread
> id=26000>
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