On 4 Aug 2002 at 15:32, Hermit wrote:
>
> [Joe Dees] The ratio was 23/52.
>
> [Hermit] Why bother to repeat lies or mislead when everyone else knows
> that you are? Read the report before making more of an ass of yourself
> (oops, you already have).
>
> [Hermit] The Palestinian death toll during the operation was around
> 500. The Israelis lost around 20. QED
>
That's not what the UN report said. It stated Jenin casualties as 52. The
500 figure is for the entire operation in all the cities. See what an ass you
have made of yourself by reading the report below.
UN Report: Evidence Lacking of Israeli
'Massacre' at Jenin
(CNSNews.com) - Allegations that Israeli troops "massacred" 500
Palestinians at a refugee camp in the West Bank city of Jenin earlier
this year have "not been substantiated in the light of evidence that
has emerged," according to a new report by the United Nations.
One Jewish group in the U.S. congratulated U.N. Secretary General
Kofi Annan for "confronting the lies about Jenin," but a Palestinian
spokesman rejected Annan's assessment, insisting the "Israeli
massacre" had "clearly happened" and that it deserved to be labeled
a "war crime."
In the report, Annan blamed both the Israelis and Palestinians for
the violence in Jenin and elsewhere in the West Bank, especially for
their willingness to endanger civilians.
The Israeli military incursion in Jenin began on March 29 and lasted
until April 21. And while Palestinian sources have insisted that 500
Palestinians were killed in Jenin, the U.N. said it had been able to
confirm only 52 Palestinian deaths as of April 18, about half who
may have been civilians.
The report did indicate that 497 Palestinians were killed between
March and May during Israel's larger military offensive in the West
Bank called Operation Defensive Shield. The U.N. report labeled
the attack "the most extensive such operation by Israel in a decade."
It was launched after more than a dozen Palestinian suicide
bombings, including one on March 29 that killed 29 Israelis.
According to U.N. officials, Annan wrote the report without a visit
to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities because Israel refused to
cooperate with a fact-finding mission proposed by Annan and
backed by the United Nations General Assembly.
"Of particular concern is the use, by combatants on both sides, of
violence that placed civilians in harm's way," said Annan in the
report. "Much of the fighting during Operation Defensive Shield
occurred in areas heavily populated by civilians, in large part
because the armed Palestinian groups sought by the IDF (Israeli
Defense Force) placed their combatants and installations among
civilians.
"Palestinian groups are alleged to have widely booby-trapped
civilian homes, acts targeted at IDF personnel but also putting
civilians in danger," Annan wrote.
Pointing criticism at the Israelis, Annan wrote "IDF is reported to
have used bulldozers, tank shelling and rocket firing, at times from
helicopters, in populated areas."
The report quoted both Palestinian and Israeli observers as saying
the Jenin camp had some 200 armed men from the Al-Aqsa Martyrs
Brigades, Tanzim, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas.
The violence and terrorist attacks "have caused enormous suffering
for the Israeli people and the country's economy," Annan wrote, but
Palestinian economic life was "paralyzed."
Annan concluded, "While some of the facts may be in dispute, I
think it is clear that the Palestinian population [has] suffered and are
suffering the humanitarian consequences, which [are] very severe."
"I would hope that both parties would draw the right lessons from
this tragic episode and take steps to end the cycle of violence, which
is killing civilians on both sides," Annan wrote.
A spokesman with the Anti-Defamation League said Annan's report
"shouldn't have been written."
"The real conclusion of the report is the confirmation of the
international community's propensity to question Israeli assertions,
while accepting without question wholesale fabrications and
exaggerations by Palestinian leaders," said ADL national director
Abraham Foxman in a statement.
However, Foxman said the report would be "constructive if the
international community examines what led them to their
embarrassingly flawed rush to judgment, and their reckless haste to
condemn Israel based on clear untruths and rumors."
The American Jewish Congress welcomed the United Nations
report.
"We congratulate Secretary-General Annan for rising above the anti-
Israel bias that normally pervades the U.N., despite his best efforts
to oppose it, for getting out the truth and confronting the lies about
Jenin," said American Jewish Congress president Jack Rosen in a
statement.
BBC Radio reported Thursday that Palestinian officials rejected the
report.
"The Israeli massacre in Jenin's refugee camp clearly happened and
this is a war crime and crime against humanity also took place,"
Saeb Erekat, a top negotiator for the Palestinians, told the BBC.
Israel praised the report saying it was brought about "as a result of
false Palestinian propaganda."
"The report overwhelmingly negates this Palestinian fabrication and
repudiates the malicious lies spread regarding this issue," Israeli
Foreign Ministry spokesman Daniel Taub told BBC.
>
> [Joe Dees] And the Palestinian terrorists didn't 'get lucky'; they
> planned their ambushes and planted their booby-traps well.
>
> [Hermit] My first reaction was that the IDF didn't know what it was
> doing. The IDF inquiry Army has found that the toll was due to
> incompetence. Joe Dees asserts (without evidence) that it was skillful
> deployment. Why does Joe Dees think that we should pay attention to
> his opinion on COINOPS where he apparently knows less than nothing?
>
More than half of Israel's casualties (13 out of 23) were due to a single
well-planned ambush. Hereya go:
Initiative, Surprise and the Jenin Ambush
By Chris Upchurch
4/9/2002
Today, an ambush by Palestinian militants killed at least 13 Israeli
soldiers (most of them reservists) who were searching the Jenin
refugee camp for weapons and wanted men. The ambush was
sophisticated and well executed. According to press accounts the
Palestinians detonated a bombs as the Israelis moved into a
courtyard, killing some instantly and collapsing an adjacent
building, burying others. Gunfire from adjacent rooftops killed
several others. The Palestinians continued to fight Israeli special
forces units sent to the scene as reinforcements, including suicide
bomb attacks. Unfortunately for the Israelis, scenes like this are
likely to become more common if they continue to occupy
Palestinian controlled areas.
Previous Israeli incursions into Palestinian controlled areas have
been very well executed with minimal Israeli casualties. One reason
for this is the skillful use of surprise and initiative. The shock of a
sudden attack can paralyze the enemy, leaving them unable to
effectively react. One of the classic examples of surprise is the Pearl
Harbor attack. The Japanese achieved near total surprise and were
able to execute a complex and extremely effective attack with
minimal losses. Surprise is an effective weapon, but one of limited
duration. Depending on the situation, it may wear off in anywhere
from a few seconds to a few days.
The surprise of Pearl Harbor lasted for a few hours or days, after
that the Americans were psychologically ready to fight back.
However, Japan continued its advance across the Pacific unchecked
for another six months, because they retained the initative. Initiative
has similar characteristics, but is subtly different. A military force
that has the initiative is forcing the opponent to react to its plans and
actions, rather than executing their own. As long is it has the
initiative, a military force can execute a plan smoothly, adapting to
unforeseen circumstances and pushing toward its objectives. The
opponent must do everything on the fly, reacting to the other side's
movements.
During previous incursions into Palestinian controlled areas, the
Israelis made skillful use of surprise and initiative. Surprise allowed
the IDF to get their foot in the door and begin their action without
facing significant resistance. Even after surprise wore off, quick,
decisive action allowed Israel to maintain the initiative throughout
the operation. While the Palestinians did fight back, they did so as
individuals and small groups, without a coherent plan.
The enemy of surprise and initiative is time. Time gives the
opponent a chance to gather his wits and his forces. It means an
opportunity to plan coordinated actions and prepare for
contingencies. To return to the Pacific War for a moment, time and
their ability to break Japanese codes allowed the U.S. to seize the
initiative, frustrating Japanese advanced at the Coral Sea and
Midway. In this case, time meant months, but it varies with the
circumstances. In Mogadishu a delay of half an hour turned a simple
snatch and grab into a bloody twelve hour firefight for U.S. troops.
The Jenin ambush shows that the Palestinians were able to take the
initiative from the Israelis, at least at a local level. This was
definitely not a spur of the moment action; it required considerable
planning and preparation. The Palestinians were able to execute
such a complex attack because the Israel's ongoing operations in the
West Bank have continued for considerably longer than any before.
This gives Palestinian fighters time to plan and execute a
sophisticated ambush such as this. Lest anyone think this is a
singular event, the Palestinians have demonstrated the ability to
effectively implement complex plans before, witness the destruction
of two Israeli tanks in the West Bank during the past month. If Israel
continues to operate in Palestinian controlled areas, it is likely to
face similar situations in the future.
While the Jenin ambush has certainly garnered widespread media
coverage, what has it accomplished? The deaths of 13 Israeli
soldiers are certainly a tragedy for their friends and family, but it is
hardly enough to even scratch Israeli military might. To provide a
basis for comparison, consider that more than Israeli 20,000
reservists were mobilized for the current operation. The more
significant effects are probably psychological. While this incident is
certainly a blow to the Israelis it seems unlikely to dissuade them
from their course of action in the West Bank. However, it does
significantly undercut one of the Israel's primary goals in these
incursions: to prove to the Palestinians that they have no sanctuary
in the refugee camps.
By bloodying the IDF in Jenin, the Palestinian fighters have proven
that the Israelis cannot move at will into any part of the occupied
territories. At first glance, the loss of up to 200 Palestinians in order
to kill 13 Israeli soldiers hardly seems like a victory. The calculus of
an insurgency is quite different, however. Any opportunity to hurt
their adversary or frustrate his aims is a victory no matter how minor
the gain or how great the cost. A similar result can be seen in the
ongoing standoff in Bethlehem and Arafat's continuing ability to
frustrate Sharon. Even symbolic acts of resistance with little
practical effect can take on gargantuan proportions.
Finally, this action could be a boon to the Palestinians on the
international stage. If 13 Israelis had been killed in a café or on a
bus, the western world would have reacted with shock and
condemnation. Killing soldiers is an entirely different matter.
Soldiers are expected to place themselves in the line of fire;
casualties are part of the job. Furthermore, most western nations
have a history of insurgency or revolution. Many nations trace their
very existence back to such struggles. While terrorist attacks on
civilians are regarded as repugnant, the heroic resistance of a
partisan is quite acceptable. For the Palestinians who are willing to
see a negotiated settlement with Israel, this may represent an
opportunity. No amount of suicide bombs will ever drive the Israelis
into the sea. However, if the Palestinians deny Israel the moral high
ground by ending terrorism, it may be possible to make the
occupation painful enough to force a withdrawal.
> [Joe Dees] That's why there was so much damage to buildings in Jenin;
> after one ambush, the Israeli infantry changed their tactics and
> proceeded to advance through buildings, by knocking out walls between
> partitions, rather than advance down the booby-trapped and amush-lain
> roads between buildings.
>
> [Hermit] When areas are razed by tanks and armored bulldozers, and
> buildings demolished with shell and missile fire, this is not "damage"
> it is wanton destruction and a war crime. Read the UN report, before
> again making an ass of yourself.
>
Some buildings were indeed so damaged; they were the buildings from
which the Israeli forces were coming under Palestinian fire. And I am not
transmogrifying into a burro; I leave the brayingly blatant asininity to you.
>
> [Joe Dees] Also, the Palestinian terrorists have quite a few guns to
> go along with their bombs, and the terrorist organizations train their
> members intensely.
>
> [Hermit] I say this even bullshit - bullshit has some substance behind
> it. Yet my statement should be easy to disprove. So try to prove that
> this opinion (unlike the others here) has some facts behind it. Give
> numbers and places. Who have the Palestian terrorists trained, where
> did they train, who did the training, how many have they trained, how
> long did the training last? What were the IDF doing while this was
> happening? Oh, and how many weapons and of what calibres do they own.
>
Many formerly trained in Jordan; this has been halted Many trained
Lebanon, and still do. But presently, the terror training camps that are
strictly in the area are to be found in Gaza. Of course, many Palestinian
police, with police training, also moonlight as terrorists.
As for weapons, they have 50 tons less than they would've had if the
Mugniyeh shipment had gotten through from Iran. But who knows how
many shipments DID get through? One thing is known for sure; enough
weapons are flowing into Gaza from Egypt that several tunnels dug for
their transport have been discovered.
> ----
> This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of
> Virus BBS.
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> id=25949>
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