On 3 Aug 2002 at 22:34, ben wrote:
> [ben] Also, it is not surprising to see that many more Palestinians
> were
> killed and injured when one takes into account the readiness with
> which they kill themselves and each other.
>
> [Hermit 1] Can you support this, in other words, what percentages of
> these
> totals do you think were "own goals"?
>
> [ben 2] No, I cannot support with numerical evidence, only the widely
> shared knowlege that this is a people who have sent their own children
> into certain death just to kill their neighbor's children, and the
> recent disclosire in the UN report than many of the deaths in Jenin
> were caused by Palestinians falling victim to Palestinian boobytraps.
>
> [Hermit 1] Once we have that information, we can determine whether the
> assumptions underlying the balance of this discussion are correct or
> whether it is, as I suspect, founded on unstated and invalid
> assumptions.
>
> [ben 2] I'm not saying that the "own goals" if discounted would even
> the score. I'm merely saying that it would be a closer count - how
> much closer, I (and I suspect anyone else) cannot at this point say.
>
> [Hermit 1] Even if your assumptions were correct, and I don't think
> that
> they are, consider what it would take to get you to the point you are
> asserting is held by the Palestinians. What would it take to get you
> to applaud one of your children committing suicide? What would it take
> to get you to kill one of your relatives? Would it not be easier for
> you to applaud one of your children attempting to kill an enemy, or to
> do so yourself, before being killed in turn?
>
> [ben 2] What would it take? Well I suppose believing that it was
> commanded by god would help, as would a fat paycheck. Being
> manipulated by spiritual and poliytical leaders with personal agendas
> might push me in that direction as well. This of course in addition to
> the real, grievous harm I freely admit has been done to them in the
> name of Zionism.
>
> [Hermit 1] If you can't consider the Palestinian/Israeli situation
> disspassionately [...]
>
> [ben 2] I can. I don't live there; I don't even know anyone who lives
> there. I have no philospohical or spiritual ties to either faith
> involved. I had a bit of what would be described in other scenarios as
> "white man's guilt" but I got over it.
>
> [Hermit 1 (cont'd)] consider historical precedents for the situation.
> What were the historic motivations for the people in similar
> situations?
>
> [ben 2] Please rephrase the question. Which people? The Palestinians,
> the Israelis, disposessed people in general or occupying peoples in
> general? There are a wealth of historical comparisons that could be
> made, but I'm not sure which direction you're trying to go with this.
>
I just wish to add that the reason so many buildings were damaged in
jenin is that, after dealing with all the booby traps in the roads, the
Israeli forces rightly considered that it was a safer course for them to
proceed not between the buildings, in the booby-trapped roads, but
within them, by breaking down walls between sections of road-facing
buildings.
>
> Cheers,
> -ben
>
>
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