[Nurgle 1] People like Mr Dees are acting as if the only way to solve the problems in the Middle East is with military force. This is wrong, and is more likely to create more problems down the line.
[Joe Dees 2] Allowing only one side to kill people means less problems, ayy? Maybe for the one side doing the killing (in the name of their god). Maybe for those on this list who would prefer to see the side they are killing be completely killed off.
[Hermit 3] I don't think he said that Joe. This is your strawman - and one with which we are all too familiar. Why not give it a holiday.
[Nurgle 1] First of all, what is the problem?
[Nurgle 1] Contrary to what some people would have us belive, it isn't Islam, it's abuse of the religion by some very charismaric people, such as Bin Laden and Hussein, through the use of extensive propganda which makes out the West uses military force to achieve its goals.
[Joe Dees 2] That is a time-honored solution for the religion; twenty-two out of twenty-four global conflicts presently happening on the globe have, as their participants on one or both sides, Islamic regimes. And guess why? Because the religion is a fascist, world-conquering one, began by a murderous mercernary.
[Hermit 2] Much the same can be said about Christianity. Have you read the "War Scroll"? How about, "Bring all those who would not have me reign over them and kill them before me" ["Jesus"] (cited from memory, so excuse any errors). Remember, this was used for centuries by the Church as a reason for executing "heretics and infidels." Just as other passages were used for centuries to justify slavery. Yet how many Christians argue today that slavery is justified by the babble and should be restored? All classical religious works are so contradictory that they are effectively meaningless - this goes for the JudeoChristian works as much as for the Islamic. So Nurgle is right. While all religions are harmful, the measure of harm is iun how it is interpretted, not in what it says.
[Nurgle 1] Guess what? The propaganda is right.
[Hermit 3] Agreed.
[Nurgle 1] And how do we attempt to fight this propaganda? By proving it correct time and time again. Everytime enough people believe the propaganda enough to give up their lives for it, the Western "civilisations" send in thousands of troops and bomb the place to hell, yet nobody seems concerned with fighting the propaganda.
[Joe Dees 2] The propaganda IS Islam' particularly that part, in the Koran, that divides the world into two sectopns, the Dar-Al-Islami (world of Islam) and the Dar-Al-Harb (world of War). BY DEFINITION, if you're not Islamic, war is to be made on you, until the global Ummah.
[Hermit 3] I'd argue that this is your interpretation Mr Dees. There are other possibilities. From the Muslim perspective, perhaps the description of the non-Islamic world as a "World of War" is accurate. But I'm not sure that it means non-stop fighting. Certainly history shows that this is not the case.
[Nurgle 1] A much mroe reasonible plan of attack would be to destroy the propaganda, by sending teachers, doctors and medicine into the middle east. The costs of a single cruise missile can pay a teachers salary for a year, and I'm sure there are some who would even volumteer to go for free. The fuel for a single air-raid would cover expenses for an army of doctors.
[Joe Dees 2] We have many such people and programs in place, or haven't you heard? The occasional one is kidnapped or killed for the greater glory of Allah and to prevent a nasty thing like knowledge form corrupting faith, but still they go to teach, provide medical care, and distribute food.
[Hermit 3] Why don't you support your assertions Joe?
[Nurgle 1] If the US and its allies acted as humintarians instead of warmongers, the warmongers in the middle east would have nothing to base their propaganda on.
[Nurgle 1] FIght the propganda, not the people.
[Joe Dees 2] We are, by any measure, (money, food, medical materials, books, volunteers) far and away the world's greatest humanitarian nation. Obviously part of the propaganda that needs to be fought resides inside you.
[Hermit 3] Interesting. Another assertion lacking in support? Particularly in that it defies all of the reports (including US Government reports) I have seen. Let me quote http://www.cbpp.org/4-25-00bud-pr.htm
[*]When compared to the other 20 donor nations in terms of the share of national resources devoted to development aid for poor countries in 1997-98, the United States provided the lowest share by far. The typical country contributed more than three times the share of national resources that the United States did.
[*]In per capita aid donations, the United States was next to the last. [*]The United States contributed an amount equal to $29 per U.S. resident. In the other industrialized countries examined, the aid contribution typically was $70 per person.
[*]Although Japan's economy is less than half the size of the United States economy, Japan operates the largest foreign aid program (in dollars provided).
[*]The United Nations has established a target that donor nations should provide in aid to poor countries (Official Development Assistance) of 0.7 percent of the donor nation's gross domestic product. Four European nations exceeded this goal in 1997-98. The United States, however, contributed less than one seventh of the target.
[Hermit 3] It is worth noting that US aid has halved again from these figures (2001) which reflected 0.2% of GDP to 0.1% of GDP this year.
Hermit
---- This message was posted by Hermit to the Virus 2002 board on Church of Virus BBS. <http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=51;action=display;threadid=25921>
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