Sorry, sent this to only Nate.
--------------8A2B639FEDA45DEEBA1BCB80
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Message-ID: <359454C5.483803FD@qlink.queensu.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:11:17 -0400
From: Eric Boyd <6ceb3@qlink.queensu.ca>
Organization: Religious Engineers Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Gifford, Nate F" <giffon@SDCPOS3B.DAYTONOH.ncr.com>
Subject: Atlas Shrugged
References: <199806251839.OAA29740@qlink.queensu.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
"Gifford, Nate F" <giffon@SDCPOS3B.DAYTONOH.ncr.com> wrote:
> When you realize there is no such thing as Reardon steal <sic> and
> that John Galt is more fictional then Santa Claus let's talk again.
Obviously, the characters involved are fictional -- however, the
philosophical arguments are just as valid in that context as in others. The
fiction is a neat way to bring home the conclusion of the arguments.
Humans survive only to the extend that they use their minds. Therefore any
creed which preaches that the mind, and reason, which is it primary tool,
are evil sows the seeds of it's own downfall. They survive only to the
extent that they ignore their own creed!
Question for discussion: how valid is the FIRST premise of the above
argument? Are their other ways in which humans can survive? What other
tools do we have?
Tim Rhodes <proftim@speakeasy.org> wrote:
> I was on it for a time, doing research and generally causing
> trouble, and you seem to be repeating their dogma almost verbatum.
> (They have an Ayn Rand fetish as well.)
Ayn Rand fetish? I did get a good laugh out of the cardboard insert in the
middle, where Rand advertises for "men of the intellect, wherever they may
still be found"... strikes me that she's going about it the wrong way. One
cannot seek the emergence of the individual by forming groups... Although
perhaps what she wants is to group the individuals which already exist?
For what purpose?
> If you liked _Atlas Shrugged_ and were somehow able to suspend
> disbelief for long enough to think it could happen in the real world
It can and does happen in the real world. I read with interest yesterday a
piece in _The Ancient Engineers_ (L. Sprague de Camp, ph. 285) about the
different paths that two religious groups took centuries ago. The western
Christians (and the freethinkers among them) took the path highlighted by
Saint Thomas (1225-74), which maintained that truth could not contradict
truth, and that therefore there could be no conflict between religion and
science. The result of that path sits before you -- all the wonders of the
modern world. The fact that Thomas was wrong about the truth of religion
is beside the point (and rather ironic!)
The other path, that of Ghazzali (1058-1111), who maintained that
scientific studies where harmful because they "lead to loss of belief in
the origin of the world and in the creator", was followed by Islam -- and,
by 1150, the Khalifah was already burning books to prove his piety!
Today, one can see which path proved the wiser -- as we westerners live in
the modern world, Islam is still playing the catch up game. They are
learning to play by OUR rules, because they recognize that theirs will get
them killed, eventually.
It is a sad reflection on humanity that Islam is growing. Memetics tells
me why, but somehow that doesn't make me feel better about the spread of
such meme complexes.
> Looking at the known history of the world and its civilzations,
> why do you think that knowledgable, action seeking freethinkers
> cannot be overcome by the "mindless drones"? Or do you count
> the Huns and Visagoths among the "freethinkers"?
As Rand said, the thinkers can only be overcome to the extent that we let
the savages control us. Nobody can *force* a man to think[1] -- and
without thought, a savage's violence can be no more effective than his
fists.
ERiC
BTW _The Ancient Engineers_ is a very cool book about the history of
engineering... from the great wall of China to the roman aquaducts, to the
pyramids, to Heron of Alexandria's mechanical gadgets (including what could
be called the first proto-STEAM ENGINE, circa the first century!), this
book has been the most entertaining read I've had in a long time!
[1] Indeed, my study of Taking Children Seriously seems to point to the
fact that coercion DESTROYS a person's ability to think, and that the long
term consequences of force make it impossible to solve any problems, since
it destroys the foundation and source of solutions: creativity. From a
memetic standpoint, coercion acts on a person in just such a way that it
will cause them to coerce their children...
--------------8A2B639FEDA45DEEBA1BCB80--