> >C.A. Cook writes:
> >Nathan wrote:
> >> Can morality, and the entire system of ethical behavior within a given
> >>religion or culture, be considered a meme?
>
> >Yes. The most important thing to remember when analyzing memes and
> >meme-complexes is who is spreading the meme. Unfortunatly, a great
> >deal of meme are transmitted just because they transmit. These memes
> >might not have any basis in fact, but they spread well, and so survive.
>
> With respect, Nathan is asking if the entire canon of ethics is a meme ...
> you answer yes, but
> point out that canon is really a COLLECTION of memes. I think this point
> has bearing on Nathan's next <naively offensive in my mind> statement:
>
I apologise. My message was based on an imperfect understanding of memes (I
don't even know whether to pronounce it to rhyme with gleames dims; if someone
would forward me the FAQ if any it would be very helpful). I can see how it
could be offensive to those who don't share my values (my parents are
Christians; while I am a strong agnostic, verging on an atheist, I have never
had sex (at the age of 16) and do not drink, swear or even violate cerfew (sp?))
> >>As AIDS becomes more common, it occurs to me that morality
> >>may become more traditional and restrictive due to the
> >>counterselection of memes.
>
> Rather than make a blanket statement such as this why not try to directly
> identify and track memetic effects:
> 1) Examine statistics for teen sex, premarital sex, divorce rate.
> 2) Identify and classify how sex is portrayed in the media...which is
> where memes are propagated after all. Compare and contrast Seinfeld with
> Love American Style for instance. It seems to me that sex is actually more
> casual on Seinfeld then what was portrayed on TV in the swinging seventies.
>
Has anyone done the types of studies mentioned in item 1? I would point out
that the above statement was not made to be treated as fact; I used phrases such
as 'it occurs to me' and 'may'.
> >I certainly hope not! Actually, I'm not too worried about it. I don't
> >think that we will ever go back to that horrid set of so called 'morals'
> that
> >were propogated by the various offshoots of Christianity.
>
> I would suggest that "the Christian morality" that Mr. Cook objects to is
> the particularly odious, simple minded, and intolerant morality propagated
> by the American Heartland and the media machine that feeds it. A quick scan
> of the literature will show that pre-marital, extra-marital, and homosexual
> sex was not invented in 1965 ...
>
Shakespeare along others was gay, and Queen Elisabeth I had many affairs out of
marriage. The Hippies only brought it out of the closet. For that matter, LSD
(another thing I'm not involved in) was invented in the early 1900's and used in
psychological studies for a long time before being banned.
> Nathan then writes:
> >>Homosexuality (and the subtle influences which promote it, both genetic
> >>and due to environmentally transmitted memes i.e. contact with
> >>homosexuals) would now be selecte4d against for multiple reasons.
>
> May I suggest that Nathan read "The Naked Civil Servant" the autobiography
> of Quentin Crisp.
Would this be in the public library?
> Aids is a light weight selective pressure compared to
> what society brought to bear in the first half of this century. I think
> that Aids may actually increase tolerance .... since an overtly homosexual
> individual can protect themselves from "Fag Bashing" by screaming "I Have
> Aids" and spitting.
Has this actually happened?
>
>
> Mr Cook writes:
> >I doubt this strongly. Homosexuality isn't the largest spreader of AIDS.
> >Promiscuity and needle swapping are. These two behaviors will probably
> >be selected against. Although, it seems that the promiscuity drive might
> be
> >able to overcome the survival drive. There are definite cases of the smack
> >drive overcoming the survival drive.
>
> I believe Mr. Cook is comparing Apples and Oranges here. From the Needle
> Swapping point of view: Its not clear to me that Aids kills any quicker
> than the addict lifestyle ... let me refer you to a book called "The
> Corner" for a description of the pressures that cause heroin addiction
> despite the 80's war on drugs.
> I would contend that promiscuity does not immediately follow from
> homosexuality ... any more than it follows from heterosexuality. If you
> were going to get fired from your job, ostracized, and perhaps incarcerated
> for having heterosexual sex do you think you'd be able to establish a loving
> monogamous relationship?
>
Good point.
> The advantages of evaluating culture in terms of natural selection
> <memetics> is that
>
> 1) The standard for morality becomes measurable.
> 2) Morality is acknowledged to be relative while behavior is
> acknowledged to be objective. <Know what I mean ... Wink Wink Nudge Nudge,
> Say no more.>.
>
> Note that both of these advantages are currently denied by America's moral
> majority.
Do you mean the GOP? In that case, this is <h1> very </h1> true.
-Nathan Russell