>I agree with this problem, I actually have spoken to God, twice. Once was on a
>really heavy mushroom dose, the other was in meditation without drugs. The
>first lasted for about 6 hours and was nothing but a battle - I challenged its
>reality and it challenged my moral fiber until I eventaully "won". Being a
>non-believer, it was not an option to give up, had i already been a
>believer, i
>am sure i would have been convinced beyond doubt and done whatever my
>subconscious god told me to do. In meditiation, it was less "real" and more
>"mental" more like the feeling of a presence. Again I challenged and the
>voices
>merged with mine which i took as the disillusion of seperation.
Well I'm glad you broke the ice on that one; I'll share how I got
my "confirmation" that time does not exist. Well, before that, I had this
amazing professor, a very unconventional teacher and the best I have ever
had or ever will, and he also asserted the non-existence of time. It
wasn't until I read the book "Siddhartha" by Herman Hesse, quite possibly
the most influential book I've ever read, or one of the best and favorite,
that I really began to consider time as an idea instead of a reality. The
more I thought about it and tried to look at it differently, the easier it
became to see time as a human construct that has no relevancy to 'truth'.
Anyhow...so awhile ago when I was shrooming, I was confronted by the stark
reality that INDEED, time does not exist. Say what you will, but you can't
convince me otherwise on this one. Due to that experience, I *know* for
sure it doesn't.
I'm sure others on this list could agree that whenever they've been
in an altered state of mind, commonly intoxicated by alcohol even, and
tried to pick up a watch and make sense of it, the result is staring at it
for about 10 min. and then giving up. Time really makes no sense, has no
*real* impact, and when I had that experience, I discovered that I should
not even think about time, because everything, and I mean everything always
did a complete revolution and came back to either the subject of time or
the book "Siddhartha". It was quite scary, to avoid pondering reality
because there was none and hours, days, etc. could not be fathomed. Even
now I can be sitting somewhere and begin to think, "What the hell am I
doing here?" and it all begins to fall apart again, all-together
schizophrenic in nature.
Okay, so I'm losing you now I suppose, but like I think you've
discussed before, there are many truths, because there are infinite
perspectives, so nothing is necessarily true, and that means, not
necessarily real, hence, there's no "reality". Wish I could share the
other things I discovered with that incident, because they are all relative
to the topics of this list, like how I invented my very own written
language, and discovered the root of religion itself, however I find that I
can't read it anymore. =)
>I would agree here, but I think the feeling is similar to what a Dog feels
>towards its master. Early humanoids did demonstrate ceramonial burial which is
>indicative of a religion. The Neanderthals especially.In my opinion, and I am
>basing it on my understaing of the origin of religion, is that as soon as an
>animal reaches a certain point where it can try to understand what is
>happening, it creats gods to explain what it does not understand. Without
>communication the concept may exist, but cant be passed on. With
>communication,
>gods sprout up to explain everything. The early religions all woprship
>multiple
>gods. The rain god, sea god, music god etc... as more and more becomes
>understandable, then the gods go away one by one, or are replaced with more
>abstract gods. Eventually you reach a point that there is one god, who can do
>anything, but cant be seen, felt or heard and cannot be verified.
Well...that wasn't exactly what I had in mind. However, do you
think that possibly a dog is loyal to its master because that is its will?
In a way this is similar to how humans worship God, in that he supposedly
gave us our own free will so that we could properly love him, but I
consider it quite different in that I don't think dogs 'worship' humans at
all. This is shown by how a dog with bite or attack one threatening
person, or lick the hand of another. I think dogs are intelligent so that
they consciously *choose* to be strongly loyal to a person, but not as
seeing them like a superior being, God.
Anyhow, I was asking if animals do believe in God, since you
described the "response to the unknown", being religion, as "animalistic".
I don't think animals do, however it is apparant to me that animals do
communicate, but since they don't "speak" we don't understand it. You
could say that animals sniff each other because of instinctual behavior,
and this is true, but I think they also communicate. But my belief would
contradict yours if you maintain that having communiation indicates
religion.
>I agree that they feel the tables could be turned. I dont think so though -
>having turned dozens from religion. It takes audacity and persistence, but can
>be done. At the very least, you can convince them to question their belief
>based on the evil of the actions taken by religion.
Oh, this is true, but I don't try to turn people away from
religion, as much as I don't want them to 'try' to turn me onto it, and be
converted. As far as your last sentence, I've done it to a relative of
mine, an aunt (who is also my "godmother" *lol*). She is very religious,
quite the holy roller, but not at all tyrranical or too pushy about it.
The main reason why we even get into religious arguements is that she is
one of those people that finds the "signs" of God everywhere, in
everything, to the point of absurdity. Perhaps not as bad those who thank
the Lord for dry sheets (a couple I worked for last summer), but she
honestly will be convinced that the simplest things in life are done by
God. I always get a kick out of Christians that will exclaim every minor
detail is attribuated to Him. (Like, "I won two bucks on a lottery ticket
when I was in dire need of a pack of cigarettes-Thank Jesus!")
One of these we can laugh about together but always spawns a debate
is when she actually believes that when she prays, God will grant her a
parking spot. No kidding, you'd be surprised how many Christians actually
do this. For years, and while my grandma was still alive, my aunt would go
to a busy mall or the store and when she would be driving around in vain,
like everyone else, and then pray, and then *magically*, lo and behold,
some person pulled their Dodge minivan out near the entrance. She uses
this same logic in many other ordinary events in everyday life, and it bugs
the piss out of me!
I'm willing to be tolerant enough to not spout off Neitzsche to my
beloved aunt over breakfast as long as she doesn't tell me I'm going to
Hell, but I will not accept that my cornflakes are still crunchy because
she said "Grace" before the meal! I really try to verbally beat this
nonsense out of my aunt because I think it so ridiculous by constantly
explaining the term "irony" and "coincidence", by confirming they are
legitimate things. My whole point is that after many such arguements, one
day she called me and said she was driving along in her van and started to
be assailed by self-doubt, because she started thinking, "What if Kristy is
right? Some of what she says actually makes sense." I thought this was
pretty execptional, that I could change the viewpoint of a Christian, but
then.....my aunt looked up and saw "sky-writing", a white line of smoke in
the sky, pointing upwards (of course, duh), and towards the Heavens (as her
mind interpreted it) and so she decided that, magically, that was enough
proof, and a 'sign from god' that she is on the right path, and comforted
by the fact that niece-inflicted doubts could no longer intercede on her
peace of mind, she merrily when on her way. I just dumbly slapped my
forehead of course; I give up.
>You and I are gonna get along fine, unfortunately, although i dont have fear,
>and dont want to learn it, i do have hate, at least the emotion of VERY STRONG
>dislike. I call that hate. In this refrence it could be said that I hate the
>far right wing. It could be said that I hate oppression of any kind.
One last thing; although I consider myself to be very
"open-minded", I also consider it a personal fault that much like other
people, I exhibit an "unreasonable hatred" for people I don't really know.
In my experience, once you get to know a person, and really communicate,
you can't really hate them anymore. I accept having hatred of a 'thing'
like oppression, or as I do, one for all '-isms' that are
created/practiced, but I am victim of an unreasonable dislike for people
that rub me the wrong way. One good example would be how I think Billy
Grahm is the Anti-Christ. Ironic, yes, but although there are other, 'more
evil' evangelists and men out there, I can't help myself in wishing he was
dead. I may even go so far as to say that in theory, I would even wish
that I could personally kill him.
This dislike can be explained by certain particulars, like hearing
the bastard promote his new book and give a heartfelt message over the
'Wal-mart radio station' about a thousand times last summer, to the point
where I helplessly twitch in angst at the mere mention of his name or his
voice. However, it still remains that my feelings toward this person I've
never met are unresolved hatred. (Like Kathie Lee Gifford or 'Sugar Ray')
Her Long-Windedness,
Kristee