virus: Re: virus-digest V1 #117

Ken Pantheists (
Fri, 20 Dec 1996 21:39:27 +0000

Among other things XYZ said, was this:

> Because people
> who have been brainwashed are unable to comprehend new ideas
> unless you get their immediate and undivided attention.


And this

> Some of these people have over-reacted to my initially harmless > post about the "science" of memetics to the point that they have > done what many of the superstitous and backward-thinking people > of the Dark Ages


You obviously came onto this list with a very strong purpose in mind.

You also came onto it with a strong prejudice. You had a hard on for some make-believe fadsters that, I hope you realize, don't really exist on this list.

> But at least I accomplished my goal, which was to reduce the > unproductive components of this email list to

You have not reduced much. We were productive BXYZ (before XYZ)

The feeling I get from your post is that you are not willing to take responsibility for what you saiid-- it's our fault for "Over reacting".

I'm not willing to take that blame. I don't think we earned it.

I will however continue to discuss memetics with you, however exclusive your future vision of this list is...

John and XYZ: I am, after all, a scientist at heart, and little would please me more than to be a part of turning memetics into something better resembling hard science.

> If we boil away all the sensationalism behind the current think- > ing behind memes, we will be left with a valuable nugget of facts > that can be used to build up something more valuable. *****************************************************************

This is disheartening to me. I am not a scientist.

This list has been a gift. I would never, in any "real life" situation sit at a discussion table with scientists and sociologists and political theorists. I have commended this lists openness and inviting character to friends. Why do we have to bend to meet your criteria?

I could say something like: Why don't you go out and get a degree in Fine Arts so you can talk to me about things *I* find valuable??


John wrote:

OK then: let us call out for suggestions on: - - How can we work to make memetics have greater appeal to the purely logical, scientific thinker? *****************************************************************

Memetics contains logic and science. Both are inherently memetic.

To say that they are not (and I've used this arguement before) is like saying the Host on a Catholic Altar is not made of atoms.

Now-- That's assuming the problem that "logical thinkers" have with memetics is the simple content.

If it's not content, but rather the form of the message that's causing a problem. (Which is a totally new stance from XYZ since every arguement s/he has given so far has been about content)

Then you are arguing about pure cosmetics-- the packaging should not bother you if you pay attention. Yes-- we can have a meme list that appeals to logical poeple, to black people to Americans, to gays and lesbians, to adult children of black American lesbians....... but we would only be propogating the very behaviour we seek to analyse-- memetic engineering.

Example:"Let's make our discussion about round things more appealing to billiards players" Well, You've just created a list that discusses billiard balls.

Can you not understand the ironic component of the Church of Virus????

Has logic completely castrated your ability to do the phasing between true/false that irony requires? Can you not read it?

John's final note:

- - How can we do this in such a way as to not lose the (supposed) appeal of CoV to non-scientific thinkers? Possible? *********************************************************

I did not come across this statement until I had already written most of the above.

Thanks for the sentiment John.

But its placement in your message makes it look back handed.

Sorry for the extra long post-- but I had to get it off my chest.

Regards +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Ken Pantheists +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

  Ken Pantheists