virus: Re: level 3 minds

Ken Pantheists (
Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:54:54 +0000

Wow. I have been off line for a couple of days and come back to find
that this list has boomed once again.

I am feeling rushed to read the posts and feel bad when I have to skim

Is it possible David to create a list of subjects at the top of each
digest so those of this who are finding this to be too much can jump
down to the threads we are involved in?

Sorry, lost track of the thread name, so I'm just going to lump this is

> On 15 Oct 96 at 21:35, Reed Konsler wrote:
> > I assert: For the vast majority of people (95%) genetics plays little or
> > no role in memetic development.
Martin Traynor replied:

> Except possibly where the physical structure of the brain has an
> effect on its content, but this would apply more to the memetic
> development of a species rather than its individual members.

I assert the opposite of what Reed asserts. Doesn't your genetic make-up
affect the memes you are exposed to? I'm pretty sure men expose each
other to different memes than women? Does a person's skin color,
physical appearance (fat, skinny, beautiful, ugly), sexual orientation,
not cause them to adopt specific memes about themselves and other

I see Ken has picked up on this as well.

> Analagy - if a large number of individuals all do exactly the same
> physical exercise for a period of time, large differences will be
> seen in there physical development. Inquiry - why would we expect
> mental exercise to have different outcomes?
> (Furthermore - some people are tall and thin, others short and
> stocky. Why should our brains not be molded by the same bell
> curve that determines the rest of our bodies?)

> >Wake up. If you are well fed, clothed, loved, educated and attendend to as
> >a child then you will be more intelligent as a result, presuming you are
> >not handicapped by significant menal defects.

Sorry Reed, it seems like you and I end up on opposite ends of an issue
more often than not these days, it's nothing personal.

But you are using a mutated version of that "means nothing" meme that's
been floating around the U.S. for the past three years--- Family Values.

I can imagine a family where children are well tended and grow up to be
as dumb as a bag of hammers. I can also imagine a situation where
children who are not well tended develop intelligence out of pure need
for stimulation.

John Schneider:

> At 01:09 PM 15/10/96, Richard Brodie wrote:
> >4. The Level-3 mind sees ALL memes as mental programming, as
> >approximations of reality, as useful girders, pulleys, and cords. The
> >Level-3 minds realizes that NO meme is True, but all memes in his
> >arsenal are at his disposal for use when useful. Arguing or despairing
> >about the truth or untruth of a meme is a Level-2 exercise.
An excellent model for virian virtue (IMHO)

I have returned to this list after a breif hiatus to see people still
pressing mimetic buttons **unconsciously** (I think so any way) by
peppering their arguments with phrases like "priests who fuck boys" and
"ministers who steal millions" or "guiding the ignorant masses". It's
incredible to read the memes that are being produced in the religion
threads and see how closely they match the blueprints of the oh-so-hated
religious memes themselves.

> Then again, all the True Level-3 minds are
> surely living
> in small huts on the plateaus of Tibet, and are totally unconcerned with
> the
> whole concept of "memetics" in the first place.

That's a self defeating thought.

Why do you think that level three is a lifetime of work and
contemplation? Why do you think it exists outside of your culture or
outside of the material/materialistic world? You have created a memetic
package that has placed level three on a pedistal. You could write a
bible to level three and make millions following that train of thought.

What if level three isn't higher, but lower? Lower down the evolutionary
chain of the memes you already have? You already know level three, you
just got too sophisticated to remember it. Does it sound inaccessible
> At 09:04 PM 15/10/96, Reed Konsler wrote:
> > At this time memetics is a theory which has yet to be corroborated
> > by the neurobiological tests which might disprove it.

Speaking from a memetic viewpoint, the data that disproved it would be
memetic material. You can't escape it. It's like trying to talk about
color when you don't believe in light.

Vicki Rosenweig: <on priests who have lost faith>

> Alternatively, someone could have serious doubts about
> the cosmological parts of Catholic theology, but still think the
> moral teachings had value, not only as a matter of social
> order, but (for example) because they encourage charity.
> He might even be doing charitable work in that church context,
> and feel that his doubts about (say) the virgin birth were outweighed
> by the simple fact that people who would otherwise go hungry
> were being fed.
> I've noticed that these reasons suggest that the person's main
> work is not teaching religion.

I have also noticed, having lived in a house with a bunch of priests for
a number of years , that they rarely regard people as ignorant or as a

> Martin Traynor wrote :-
> > can a brilliant thinker fail to notice the inherent flaws and
> > inconsistencies in Vatican teachings? The conclusion I initially came
> > to (and held for a number of years) was that beyond a certain point
> > they were all liars and hypocrites..

I think that's a little harsh, but everyone has a right to spread
whatever memes they choose.

Hakbeeb Nandalal responded:

> The laity is taught to regard priests as being somewhat closer to God
> than they, but a thin veil of superstition is all that separates them
> from their flocks.

Again, I challenge the model here. I was initially introduced to the god
meme in a protestant context. So I feel immune to the situation you
describe. Incidentally-- one of my friends here in Vancouver was a
quaker--- no Priests at all but plenty of the god meme.

Secondly, if there is so much fear and mystery surrounding priests, why
do people treat them so badly?

A friend of mine was totally berated (cruelly) by one of his
parishioners for a scandal. His crime: He was in the supermarket on a
scorching summer day without his collar and in walking shorts.

I think to be more accurate-- you might say that people who are
religious believe there is a "right and wrong" way to act and some of
them enjoy and perpetuate the "policeman in your head" in order to feel
better about themselves.

I have encountered similar behaviour in non-religious environments such
as "at the office".

Ken Pantheists                   
Virus Theatre         
TooBa Physical Theatre Centre