[Fwd: Re: [Fwd: virus: Religion & Logic]]

Ken Pantheists (kenpan@axionet.com)
Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:17:46 +0000

Okay: I had to forward this as a big chunk- please excuse.

John A wrote:
> Ken Pantheists wrote:
> >
> > > Both religion and logic attempt to explain the world. Religion attempts
> > > this from a substratum of ignorance, awe and bias.
> >
> >
> > So do most forms of creative expression. Music, visual art and
> > performing arts all rely on awe and bias to make their point. It is also
> > known as the "expression of the sublime".......
> >
> Creative expression comes from a sense of awe,

What I meant by "expression of sublime" was that a lot of art is meant to *inspire* a sense
of awe as well. Very much like the "spiritual transportation or sensual trances of religious

but it may stem from
> other feelings as well(ie sadness, serenity, altered states of
> conscience). Religion grew upon ignorance of the natural world; ancient
> peoples were ignorant of the physical process of thunder, so they
> created Zeus to explain it.

I agree with you on that. But a large component of spiritual/expressive thought springs from
ingorance (I hate that word, how about lack of intellectual context for) ontological states
(ie sadness, sreneity, altered states of consciousness.)

The difference between these two is the
> weight of thier concepts. No one has ever been burnt upon a stake for
> heresy because they preffered Tchaikvsky's 5th symphony to Beethoven's 9th.

But art has been used to promote the burning of pople at the stake. There is a t-shirt I see
occasionally that says "Art Can't Hurt You" - it's a lie. It can. Secular art is a
dangerous weapon in the hands of nationalists and racists or anyone wth a destructive
agenda. (Same with religion) If you ahve a chance see "Mephisto", a movie about an actor who
becomes the toast of the german stage during the years of the third riech. The entire movie
takes place in the years just prior to the invasion of Poland. The final scene is brilliant.
> >
> > Primitive humans
> > > attributed human qualities to nature, therefore god became
> > > anthropomorphic. They knew nothing about nature, so they used their
> > > imaginations.
> >
> > The god(s) (I assumed you were not refering to just the jewish or
> > christian one) may also have become anthropomorphized because they were
> You assume correctly.
> > extensions of human desires, lusts, perversions and virtues. The Gods of
> > ancient greece raped, fucked, killed, and cannibalized because these are
> Can't they arrest you for saying "fuck"?

I consider the word part of my strong Saxon heritage.
> > But there are also a
> > number of immaterial gods and animal spirits and multiform gods that
> > were skipped over in your statement (minor nit-picky point) :)
> >
> These would come from a sense of awe for nature, just less bias. Most
> animal spirits are said to be upright like humans.
> > flame against John, but something I find in sciences in general) Comedy
> > and Tragedy are ancient greek religious rites. We participate in them
> > every time we plunk $8.50 down for movie ticket. Instead of ritualizing
> > the greek grape harvest we ritualize the oil industry, or the cold war.
> >
> At a certain point, rituals cease to be religious and they become a part
> of secular culture. The spiritual source of the rite vanishes.

At a certain point rationalism ceases to be about finding truth and they start arresting you
for saying fuck.

> > John made a statement that logic provides an undistorted looking glass
> > for us to look through- I think he meant lens, a looking glass is a
> I did mean lens.
> > mirror, which would provide an undistorted reflection of yourself. I
> > think logic is a great lens but a lousy mirror.
> >
> Objectivity is what makes logic work. When you look at yourself
> objectively, you see what you really are.

You cannot look at yourself objectively. It is impossible.