psypher wrote:
> > Who is "WE"? the species as a whole, a particular unit of the whole,
> > national or otherwise.
>
> ...one one level [we] is the species, yes. I do realize I can't get
> up and cooperate with the whole of homo sapiens, but I can do the
> best I can to cooperate with those around me to build full and rich
> lives which don't infringe on the ability of others to live lives of
> their own. So that's what I try to do.
>
So do we all, this should be the least you do - this is the status quo
>
> > We are all in one system, but the system will perform and exist
> > whether all parts are there or not. No country, no company, no
> > religion, can go even the shortest time without rifts in its
> > organization. It is not currently possible to cooperate on the scale
> > you imagine.
>
> ...the scale I imagine is the person on in the seat next to me on the
> bus in the morning. The person who checks my groceries at the store,
> the librarian who helps me find a book, the person at the next table
> in a cafe, the cabby, the printer, the people around me every day.
>
still the status quo, and what we all do
>
> > We dont know that - we adapt and adapt fast. You should say, "our
> > survival as we are now depends on the stability of our ecology".
>
> ...our survival as we are now is a moot point. Like I keep saying to
> people here - I don't know any of you except as abstracted bits of
> text glowing out at me from a screen, I don't know what kinds of
> people you are, I don't know what kinds of worlds you live in - I
> only know what surrounds me every day. That's the world I grew up in,
> the world I live in and it's dying fast, dependent on the enslavement
> and pain of millions, eating itself alive from the inside out.
>
Right, so how can you presume to know what is best for the whole? Dying fast? By what measurement? population? crime? Literacy? From where I sit, things get better every day, the problem is that people dont vote, or volunteer time and/or money, or run small business that employ people. Making things better "one person at a time" is NOT a full time job. In the world I am in there are a lot of people making life better, and only a few making it worse.
>
> Now,
> > I would prefer an improving ecology as in a healthier, more diverse,
> > less poulted ecology - but my taste and reality are two different
> > things. i will take the most pragmatic and reasonable approach to
> > improving it - but my expectations are limited to the scope of
> > possibility.
>
> ...I have no expectations, I haven't since I was 8 years old and
> found out what a nuke was. But my aspirations, my hopes, my dreams
> and the things that drive my efforts... those things know no limits.
>
Nuke? fascinating arent they, but no reason for discouragement. In fact, for me, the nuke is one of the only things I can point to in humanity and wonder if maybe we are peaceful. We have excercised tremendous responsibility in respect to potential harm. Like it or not, Nukes were coming, they are a part of technology. We will see worse before the end of our lifetimes. Our ability to show restraint is due to the people that DO something to ensure proper non usage. Not to those that whine about their existence.
>
> > You underestimate the power of cleaver tricks
>
> ...you're so wrong - but you don't know me any better than I know
> you. Clever tricks are what we've based everything on and the power
> in that is enormous, but the potential, the power of our minds and
> the ability of our biology to communicate is so much more than that.
>
haha, the words of a child. You are right, I dont know you, but if parts of you are represented here, then i bet you are still very young. You fit the AYMS so well, and your arguments are based on what looks like very limited experience. The communication you speak of is also a trick, that is the point - our capability to do "tricks" as you call them is our ability to "advance" in any way. There is no seperation where you make it. Our tricks are products of reason, experience, and time. A human not doing tricks is a human in a coma.
>
> >> ...to communicate we must cooperate.
> >
> > no, not really
>
> ...how can we communicate without cooperation?
Lack of communication is communication. You would learn this in negotiations. Punishment is communication, there are many types of communicaiton that do not requre the will or cooperation of the other. Unless dying is an alternative you consider acceptable. You must learn to seperate preaching from practicing. They are not the same.
>
>
> > but not as a whole, although a whole is nice. absolutism is your
> > demon and reality your hell. To make improvement you need
> cooperation
> > - you say so yourself. Yet you are difficult to cooperate with due
> to
> > your combative and dominating nature.
>
> ...as I keep saying - you don't know me. I'd venture a guess that I
> find most of the people on the list as combative and dominating as
> you find me - it's a limitation of the medium. Yes - I'm
> argumentative, it's how I learn... people tell me things, I have
> questions, I ask them. people ask me questions, I do my best to
> answer. We can communicate symbols and agree on a meaning for them,
> but abstracted information is only a model and any model is
> incomplete - lived understanding can't be fully encoded in text, so I
> muddle along the best that I can, learn theory, apply practice, and -
> hopefully - gain wisdom.
>
This is just more of the same - do you ever stop? No apologetics - no backing off - no "its all too complicated to say" crap. It's not difficult at all and you have the words. You tell us how amazing it is, well exercise it. It comes down to this - If you dont like the things around you either, change it by voting, or participation - move and stop complaining - or just curl up and die. You are stuck somewhere between complaining and curling up. As shown in your following text - still watching and still complaining. Go DO something - stand with the forlorn, march, actually HELP THEM. thats when you will get the experience you need. Get off your ass and help, then there will be no imaginary blows, and you will go to bed every day happy and wake up every day with a smile.
>
> For you, pragmatism is the
> > missing component and I think experience will be the key.
>
> ...what kind of experience do you think? How much more experience do
> I need seeing people get abused and ignored, fobbed off with pat
> answers and ready systems? How much more experience do I need seeing
> beautiful, valuable, brilliant people denied becasue they don't fit
> the mold, can't relate to a system, all because they've never been
> listened to? How many more people do I have to see give up and sell
> out their dreams and ideals because they're told "that's just the way
> it is - accept it," so they do? How many more people do I have to see
> busting themselves up and giving themselves ulcers trying to give a
> few kids a chance to learn the world is not full of pain and greed
> and stupidity? How many more times do I have to see wealth and
> ignorance crush every outside system and cover its ass with a cheque
> or a gala fundraiser? How many times do I have to see people
> speechless and unable to articulate their position because they have
> no meanigful symbols to describe the state of their world? How much
> more experience before I give up too and adopt the most flexible
> justification for my own short-sightedness? When do I get beaten
> enough so that the blows don't sting?
>
> -psypher
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Bill Roh