> I have to agree with Roni here, Cypher. Deliberately avoiding the > essence of a question is grade 7 debating club fare, and a poor > excuse for dialogue. This is the most effective way to let me know > that you don't want to hear what I have to say.
...how did I avoid the essence of your question? You asked for a definition of a complex concept, [living organism] and I gave the best one I have at my disposal at present. Right now I'm trying very hard to come to a better definition, looking at the theory behind self-organising systems and autopoiesis, but it's a process. I can't give you a pat and simple answer - I don't know that there is one.
(1)Cows taste good, they have for millions of years. [original
statement]
...my intention with this was to illustrate that the original
statement (1) looked glibly at one aspect of a complex issue and
reduced a question of ethical significance to a glib quip.
...the fact that meat tastes good doesn't have anything to do with
the ethical questions surrounding the issue of humyn/animal
relations. It's a statement of preference.
, yet below you start out with a stance of philosophical
...again, I attempted in the best way I know to answer the question
you asked. I'll try again.
>>> 2) Identify exactly how far down the food chain of "living
(2)Rape feels good, it has for millions of years. [my response]
> pragmatism, and end up arguing from aesthetics. Argument for its own
> sake, rather than as a means to an end, is fun for some people. For
> others, it's just a pointless waste of time and energy
>>> organisms" you go before you cease to bother yourself
>>> considerations you grant to cows, and:
...I bother myself at all levels of the "chain of organisms". I acknowledge and accept that I must destroy some living systems in order to maintain the integrity of my own system. This is neither a source of joy or regret to me, it is a simple fact. ...I respect all living systems for the complexity they represent and the intricacy of their function. I try, insofar as I am able to consider the implications of all my actions, again accepting that I can neither predict or control many of the consequences of my acts.
3) Why you draw the line there.
...I haven't figured out where the "line" IS yet, I don't know that I
ever will arrive at a fixed distinction. At present, I find the idea
of autopoiesis as defined in the work of Humberto Maturana and
Francisco Varela to be illuminating. I can't give a summary or
synopsis, it's a system that's new to me.
...The question of how best to structure my relations to the living
systems around me, within the living system in which I am embedded is
something I think about a LOT. I find it endlessly complex and
fascinating.
...I really am not trying to be argumentative here. If you've
perceived my responses as such then all I can ask is that you please
take into account the limitations of this medium as a vehicle for
debate.
-psypher
>>
>>...I have to kill to live, an implacable fact. I eat as low on the
>>food chain as is consistent with my material situation [ie. living
> in >urban north america with no present option to alter that