carlw wrote:
> I would argue that "reason" is the tool by which we measure our observations
I think champions of reason (especially the ones on the CoV list) would
do well to commit this definition to memory or at least keep it handy
for frequent retrieval and review.
> I would argue (as you have) that many forms of disciplined thinking exist,
I expect that a genuine use for most any form of disciplined thinking
could be found, but I'm certainly not claiming that reason wouldn't be
more useful than a lot of thses alternate modes of disciplined thinking
in the actual day to day situations in which those alternate forms of
thinking typically get used.
> and temper our cynicism to allow us to build up a sensible and "useful"
> model which allows us to make predictions about the fashion in which the
> world functions.
> yet I would also argue that many of them are not "useful" as defined above.
> While the practice of "faith" may require extreme discipline, to
> if necessary, put observation, reason, utility, knowledge and thought on one
> side, it does not produce a "disciplined model of the world" only a
> disciplined area in the head of the believer.
I hope that it's clear by now that I've got at least one foot in the "faith is a tool" camp. That said, I'm with Jonathan Ott in holding in low regard religions that REQUIRE faith as well as varieties of faith that force one to "put observation, reason, utility, knowledge and thought on one side."
> The models produced by faith
> are not competent to make predictions and thus are not "useful".
I also understand and appreciate that the post of yours that I've quoted here was a response to a post from Reed and that you are responding to what you think Reed means by faith rather than to your impression of what I mean by faith.
> On the other hand, the models produced by reason are produced through the
> application of "a disciplined model of the world" which application of
> discipline allows us to measure the effectiveness of our models' ability to
> make predictions. There is no equivalent in the "faith" based universe.
Another unsolicited entry from KMO's manifesto:
I spend quite a bit of my time in the Cave ('cuase there are a lot of cool people in there and lots of fun stuff to do), and when in the Cave, Cave Rationality is THE tool.
Here's a quote from Jonathan Ott. TOTD subscribers may recognize it and notice that I pruned it pretty savagely for the TOTD.
[T]he contemporary World War on Drugs is nothing more nor less than the modern manifestation of the millennial struggle between state power and individual freedom; between _proselytizers_ of purely symbolic simulacra of religion--propagandists of what Blake called "pale religious letchery"--and the _practitioners_ of the real thing--for religion is an _experience_, not merely a "social activity with mild ethical rules". (...) It is the Pharmacratic Inquisition, distinguished from outcroppings of brutal bigotry in other areas only by the choice of scapegoat, and with a pseudoscientific veneer of rational civility which, however ingenuously constructed or vociferously defended, remains far too small and transparent to conceal the ignorant superstition and unrestrained cruelty which fuels it.
As much as I grind it, you'd think this old axe would be sharp by now.
-KMO
TOTD for 01/25/99:
Today, far too many Americans have been victimized by international organized criminal groups and the devastation they have visited on American communities. Too many parents have lost children to drugs. Too many children have been caught in the cross-fire, or have lost their dreams and their futures. There has been too much violence, too many broken families and too many people who are virtual prisoners in their own homes all because of the terrible toll that drug trafficking and drug abuse take on good, ordinary people.
-Thomas A. Constantine, DEA Administrator
[T]he contemporary World War on Drugs is nothing more nor less than the modern manifestation of the millennial struggle between state power and individual freedom... It is the Pharmacratic Inquisition, distinguished from outcroppings of brutal bigotry in other areas only by the choice of scapegoat, and with a pseudoscientific veneer of rational civility which, however ingenuously constructed or vociferously defended, remains far too small and transparent to conceal the ignorant superstition and unrestrained cruelty which fuels it.
-Jonathan Ott
TOTD for 02/26/99
I reproach all modern religions for having handed to their believers consolations and glossings over of death, instead of administering to them the means of reconciling themselves to it and coming to an understanding with it.
-Rainer Maria Rilke
We must repudiate religions which defend against religious experiences, wearily celebrating communion with a placebo sacrament, which requires faith and gives none!
-Jonathan Ott
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