abort black babies and cut crime
« on: 2005-10-03 09:26:14 »
i am wondering who the republicans are planning to plant in the white house..now that the democrats are set to win. i am only guess that this is a cunning plan to assure democrat's victory..
Abort all black babies and cut crime, says Republican
Speaking on his daily radio show, William Bennett, education secretary under Ronald Reagan and drugs czar under the first George Bush, said: "If you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose; you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down."
Article continues He went on to qualify his comments, which were made in response to a hypothesis that linked the falling crime rate to a rising abortion rate. Aborting black babies, he continued, would be "an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down".
*gag*
and no, i am not willing to negotiate the 'relevance' factor or his 'intent'..
Bill Bennett's recent abortion comments exposed the divide in America between thinkers and feelers. Bennett said "If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down." But Bennett then immediately added that doing so would be "an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do." No thinking person listening to Bennett would believe that he ever advocated aborting black babies.
But Bennett's abortion remarks did conjure a horrible image of the mass killing of unborn black children. Feelers, those who believe emotional reaction should trump all else, naturally were horrified at Bennett's comment. A feeler would find this image very painful to bear. A feeler, therefore, might feel that Bennett would have presented listeners with such a word-picture only if he himself was not bothered by the idea of killing black babies. Thinkers, however, have been defending Bennett because they believe that intellectual rigor often requires deliberately confronting painful images to get at truth.
Besides attacking Bennett, feelers have also gone after Larry Summers, Bill Maher and John Roberts. Harvard President Larry Summers recently suggested that researchers should look into whether genetics could explain why there are so few women scientists. Feelers immediately condemned him. Summers suggested something intensely painful for some feminists to hear. His feeler critics assumed that he would put them though such an emotional ordeal only if he hated them. For feelers Summers' comments were so horrible in part because deep down these feminists probably think there might be a genetic cause for the dearth of female scientists.
Bill Maher, the former host of Politically Incorrect, got in trouble with feelers when he said that the 9/11 hijackers were not cowards. A thinker would have to concede that those who deliberately give their lives for a cause, regardless of how horrid the cause, don't fit the conventional definition of cowards. A feeler, however, would violently reject associating any positive qualities, including bravery, with the 9/11 hijackers. A feeler would believe that Maher would have done this only if he sympathized with the terrorists.
Dianne Feinstein recently made herself the Queen of Feelers when the senator announced she was voting against John Roberts because he wouldn't answer questions as a son, husband and father but just as a dispassionate lawyer. She objected that Roberts gave only "very detached response[s]." Senator Feinstein clearly believes only feelers are qualified for our Supreme Court.
Schools, with their focus on raising students' self-esteem, are doing everything possible to raise our children as feelers. U.S. students do horribly on international math tests but get top marks in mathematical self-esteem. Anything that makes a person or group feel bad is considered a sin by the educational establishment. One educationist even frets over "the damage done to [students'] self-esteem by the dominant culture's fetish about reading and writing." Another consequence of the triumph of educational feelers is the prevalence of speech codes at many colleges which are designed to prevent favored groups from having their feelings hurt.
James D. Miller writes The Game Theorist column for TCS and is the author of Game Theory at Work.
[Joe] The point is that Bennett was employing a logical disproof device known as a reductio ad absurdum argument, wherein one extrapolates extreme and absurd consequences of accepting or taking a particular contention seriously in order to demonstrate that one cannot in fact do so (that is, that one cannot accept or take the proferred contention seriously). One who was indeed a racist would NOT have chosen a racially discriminatory if/then as an example of absurdity because, to the racist, such a contention would not be viewed as absurd - but Bennett did exactly that, and immediately thereafter, so NO rational or reasonable non-ideological-axe-grinder could mistake either his purpose or his intent, furthermore explicitly condemned the absurdity he had just used in the reductio ad absurdum, an assertion that had the added advantage of stamping a Q.E.D. on his logical disproof of the assertion he had just, via his absurd counterexample, just ridiculed. But those who psychologically WANT or NEED to believe all sorts of things, including but not limited to things about others, whether these things are religious, socio-cultural, or ideological/political, will tend to do so whether or not there is in fact evidence to support such beliefs, and even when the evidence that exists would seem to undermine them - especially when their self-identity has been invested on the other side of an us/them divide from the one in which they place speakers whom they will then (wish to) willfully and negatively misconstrue (and, indeed, if their self-identity has been invested on the same side of such a divide as where they place speakers, they will then (wish to) willfully and positively misconstrue them). Bill Bennett is anti-abortion, a position I vehemently do not share, but he at least attempts to keep his opposition to abortion on ethical (he values possible future life of the fetus more than he values the actual present freedom of the woman, and here he and I disagree) rather than pragmatic grounds. His response was directed at an anti-abortion interlocuter who had asserted that abortion had cost the government tax revenues, and thus was a negative; he countered that selective abortion, by cutting crime, could be seen as a positive. It is another form of a riposte to the argument that abortion had perhaps terminated the next Gandhi in utero; the riposte being that there was just as much of a chance that it had done the same to a future Hitler - an argument with which, I daresay, we are all familiar. I think that what enrages many people about Bennett's remark was its unspeakably un-PC truth; there is, universally, more of the murder/theft/assault/rape kind of crime in the lower socioeconomic brackets, and these brackets are indeed, in the US, disproportionately comprised of blacks, so such selective abortion would indeed be likely to reduce the rate of such crimes, however execrable, reprehensible and itself criminal such a genocidal action might be. But - and this is the point - such an action is NOT unthinkable, for something not even conceived cannot be immediately rejected, as Bennett did, as evil and horrid in the extreme, thus proving, by reductio ad absurdum, his point that the abortion debate should remain on the level of (future possible) life vs. (present actual) liberty, and not be dragged down into the dangerous morass of policy-directed financial or law-enforcement expediency. But the PC police wish to censor free speech, even when it is employed in the pursuit of a logical point; they do not wish such a distasteful truth to even be expressed, even when it is expressed as a means to defeat a position by means of appealing to the undeniable fact that acting upon such a truth in such a way would be to act in a manner that can only be characterized as one comprised of as pure and unadulterated an evil as can be conceived of in our morally relativistic age. Do not mistake me here; Bill Bennett has many problems, the hypocrisy of a compulsive gambler masquerading as a moral arbiter figuring prominently among them. However, if one wishes to burn the brand of racist upon his furrowed brow, one cannot use this particular statement in order to do so, for if his statement is read as it has been transcribed, it would, in fact, tend to indicate racism's absence, rather than its presence, in its author.
<Shadow> I thought Bennet was unwise to go there, but personally I realized what he really meant. <Lucifer> what did he really mean? <Shadow> That it was absurd to view abortion as a tool for implementing social policy. <Lucifer> Did you see the related exchange with alexboko in the logs? <Shadow> no. <Lucifer> alexboko pointed out that it is trivially true when talking about aborting babies born into poverty <Shadow> Actually I was wondering if it made any difference if Bennet was actually right (that aborting black babies would reduce crime). <Shadow> of course the real issue isn't race, but poverty (if Bennet was right). * Lucifer nods <Shadow> Indeed some might suggest that Bush was implementing an anti-poverty program by not building/repairing New Orleans levees, and delaying emergency response there. <Lucifer> just a happy side effect of his incompetence ;-)
« Last Edit: 2005-10-04 12:17:06 by Jake Sapiens »
actually, crime rate will go down if every white baby in the country is aborted or if every hispanic baby is aborted or if every asian baby is aborted.
that bb chose to bring up black babies(even though there is a time lag between birth and potential criminal tendencies, as boko pointed out during our irc chat on this issue...) speaks volumes about bennett.
let us not forget that this is the man who when he was the secretary of education mentioned that he would like to see the public school system fail and that he would rather see more kids go to private schools, charter schools and those which use school vouchers when asked for help to introduce the internet in public schools.
Wrong. Absolutely, completely, irretrievable and undeniably wrong. The crime rate would rise if every jewish, caucasian or asian baby were aborted, because the per capita crime rates for these populations are lower than the crime rate for the aggregate of all populations, and the members of the higher per capita groups would be left untouched. Crime rates would drop if every black or hispanic baby were aborted, because these groups have higher per capita crime rates; thus the aggregate crime rate in their absence would of mathematical necessity be lower. (Of course, I will immediately state with vehemence and passion that I would oppose such actions with every fibre of my being, but itm didn't do Bill Bennett any good to issue an immediate discalimer, so why should it do me anygood, hunh?) Crime RATE (or any other RATE) is a PERCENTAGE, not a TOTAL (like, say, to pull a meaningless and unreferential example out of a hat, 3.4 murders PER 100,000 people within a year - this is the way in which crime rates are expressed). Of course, the reason for the higher crime rates among blacks and hispanics is that they are, relative to asians, jews and caucasians, proportionately overrpresented in the lower income classes, and (almost) any particular group's crime rate is universally statistically superglued to their poverty level relative to the standard of living of their ambient community. Have-nots, since they have less (privation), steal more, both from the haves and from each other, and these thefts can also involve assault, and even murder. Jake and Lucifer and Alex grok this; whhy can't you? The time lag you mention is the time it would take for an infant to both grow/mature to the point that (s)he is physically and cognitively capable of committing and conceiving of crimes, and to become socialized into a particular socioeconomic stratum to a degree that would lead to an individual's behavior being influenced by such environments. I happen to believe that humans are pretty much interchangeable, and, other things being equal, that any child could be raised in any culture and do as well as any other child there, absent idisyncratic handicaps such as physical or mental defects, which I do not consider to be, on the whole, ethnically or racially based (with some notable exceptions, such as Tay-Sach's disease among Jews and sickle-cell anemia among blacks). However, impoverished cultures are, quite simply and irrefutably, more crime-ridden as a rule than more affluent ones. And certain groups are more proportionately represented in lower-income levels than others. I do not expect your opinion on this issue, even though it is wrongheaded in the extreme, to change at all when presented with facts and logic, for it seems to me to be viscerally rooted rather than rationally based (I present, as evidence of this contention, your ad hominem attack on the individual which you gratuitously and illicitly substituted for an analysis and critique of the merits of the argument - I do not agree that the public school system should be trashed (rather, reform is needed), but Bennett was making the valid and true point that students taught in private and parochial schools do better, on the average, in both standardized college admissions tests and in subsequent college classwork than do their public-school-trained peers). But I figured I'd give it the good old university try.
Wrong. Absolutely, completely, irretrievable and undeniably wrong. The crime rate would rise if every jewish, caucasian or asian baby were aborted, because the per capita crime rates for these populations are lower than the crime rate for the aggregate of all populations, and the members of the higher per capita groups would be left untouched. Crime rates would drop if every black or hispanic baby were aborted, because these groups have higher per capita crime rates; thus the aggregate crime rate in their absence would of mathematical necessity be lower.
let's go over this paragraph by paragraph.
first, the above.
how do you define 'crime'?
i suppose white colour crimes are 'victimless'? possession of drugs is a felony and carries a higher sentence than child molestation. a rapist serves less time on average than a drug dealer.
The aggregate crime rate is for ALL kinds of crime, both white collar and blue collar (I include the indigent, destitute and unemployed in this group, although their crime rate is itself far higher than those who are gainfully employed in manual-labor-type jobs, and they are overwhelmingly comprised, in the US, of hispanics and blacks), as well as from all racial, ethnic and socioeconomic sources, in the population under consideration (for instance, the US population). That's why it is called the aggregate crime rate. The fact is that there are many more blue collar crimes than there are white collar crimes, simply because the economic pressure to commit the latter is vastly less. Many perpetrators of blue-collar crimes such as burglary and theft do so out of perceived economic necessity for the sake of funding the cost of basic survival (food, shelter, clothing) - which does not change the fact that such crimes are still reprehensible in that they remove economic security - and sometimes the health and lives, when their perpetration involves the commission of violence - from their victims. The affluent commit far fewer of these crimes, and indeed of any type of crime, because the underlying economic pressure to perpetrate them is far less. And, of course, blue-collar citizens largely lack the opportunity to commit white collar crimes because they lack the funds necessary to pursue the advanced degrees required to gain employment in the white collar ranks (this is another way tha social stratification persists through succeeding generations, except among those academically gifted enough to win scholarships). It is a point that white-collar crimes such as corporate pollution, stock market and banking fraud, and price-fixing/gouging both tend to involve conspiracies between multiple perpetrators and tend to victimize more people per crime (although each person to a usually lesser, nonviolent extent), and thus should receive more press than the common theft and/or assault upon an individual - and they do. Blue collar criminals disproportionately prey upon blue-collar victims (they are more accessible to the perpetrators), and while the monetary gain is less in absolute terms than it is for white collar crime, it is generally a greater percentage of what the (poorer) victim possesses. But, as I stated before, there are many more of these individual, blue collar crimes committed than there are institutional, white collar crimes. Of course, I do not believe that pre-fetal-viability abortion should be a crime when the woman desires it, or that homosexuality, gambling, prostitution, pornography, euthanasia or drug use should be, either, when engaged in by freely consenting adults. Crimes should, by definition, create victims whose identities are separate from those of the perpetrators; I see the above as oxymoronically victimless crimes. We should not legislate an unfree society where every individual choice is either mandated or forbidden; freedom means the freedom to choose between a range of alternatives, even if some of those alternatives may be personally detrimental to some choosers (as in, for instance, drug addiction or gambling losses).
The aggregate crime rate is for ALL kinds of crime, both white collar and blue collar (I include the indigent, destitute and unemployed in this group, although their crime rate is itself far higher than those who are gainfully employed in manual-labor-type jobs, and they are overwhelmingly comprised, in the US, of hispanics and blacks), as well as from all racial, ethnic and socioeconomic sources, in the population under consideration (for instance, the US population). That's why it is called the aggregate crime rate. The fact is that there are many more blue collar crimes than there are white collar crimes, simply because the economic pressure to commit the latter is vastly less. Many perpetrators of blue-collar crimes such as burglary and theft do so out of perceived economic necessity for the sake of funding the cost of basic survival (food, shelter, clothing) - which does not change the fact that such crimes are still reprehensible in that they remove economic security - and sometimes the health and lives, when their perpetration involves the commission of violence - from their victims. The affluent commit far fewer of these crimes, and indeed of any type of crime, because the underlying economic pressure to perpetrate them is far less. And, of course, blue-collar citizens largely lack the opportunity to commit white collar crimes because they lack the funds necessary to pursue the advanced degrees required to gain employment in the white collar ranks (this is another way tha social stratification persists through succeeding generations, except among those academically gifted enough to win scholarships). It is a point that white-collar crimes such as corporate pollution, stock market and banking fraud, and price-fixing/gouging both tend to involve conspiracies between multiple perpetrators and tend to victimize more people per crime (although each person to a usually lesser, nonviolent extent), and thus should receive more press than the common theft and/or assault upon an individual - and they do. Blue collar criminals disproportionately prey upon blue-collar victims (they are more accessible to the perpetrators), and while the monetary gain is less in absolute terms than it is for white collar crime, it is generally a greater percentage of what the (poorer) victim possesses. But, as I stated before, there are many more of these individual, blue collar crimes committed than there are institutional, white collar crimes.
sigh. all the above rant is not the point, is it?
basically, if we were to crunch the above, you are saying that 'blue collar' crimes are committed by black people and white collar crimes by the more affluent. how does this make my statement,
actually, crime rate will go down if every white baby in the country is aborted or if every hispanic baby is aborted or if every asian baby is aborted.
remember you replied....
Wrong. Absolutely, completely, irretrievable and undeniably wrong. The crime rate would rise if every jewish, caucasian or asian baby were aborted, because the per capita crime rates for these populations are lower than the crime rate for the aggregate of all populations, and the members of the higher per capita groups would be left untouched. Crime rates would drop if every black or hispanic baby were aborted, because these groups have higher per capita crime rates; thus the aggregate crime rate in their absence would of mathematical necessity be lower.
now you are talking about the affluent and the destitute instead of the race distinction that bill bennett made? are you suggesting that the poor 'jewish/asian/white' folk living out of trailer trash do not engage in criminal activity?
regardless, crime rate will go down if you abort non black infants too. you disagreed. tell me why without going on about affluent/poverty's influence on crime. can the statement 'if you abort all babies, crime rate will go down' or 'if you abort all male children, crime rate will go down'(obviously, there is no doubt that most criminals are male rather than female, no?) wrong? bill bennett's choice of black babies to be aborted showcases the kind of person he is....it is not something that only 'feelers' can detect. are the 'thinkers' so fucking dense that they cannot see through this?
btw. i think your distinction between white and blue collar crime is wrong. crime rates do not make any distinction between million dollar frauds and throwing someone into prison for possession of 500 gms of cocaine. when someone breaks into a home for burglary or when a father rapes his daughter or when a yuppie scams people out of their savings to the tune of millions of dollars, it ALL falls under 'crime'.
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Of course, I do not believe that pre-fetal-viability abortion should be a crime when the woman desires it, or that homosexuality, gambling, prostitution, pornography, euthanasia or drug use should be, either, when engaged in by freely consenting adults.
it is good to know what you dont believe re pre fetal viability abortion, but that wasnt the point of the argument. we are arguing about bill bennett.
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Crimes should, by definition, create victims whose identities are separate from those of the perpetrators; I see the above as oxymoronically victimless crimes. We should not legislate an unfree society where every individual choice is either mandated or forbidden; freedom means the freedom to choose between a range of alternatives, even if some of those alternatives may be personally detrimental to some choosers (as in, for instance, drug addiction or gambling losses).
right then.
regardless of whether we 'think' or 'feel', i cannot see how anyone can attempt to rationalise his obviously racist statement.
when we are done with this, we'll explore bill bennett's desire to see public schooling fail.
It wasn't a rant; it was an exposition. What part of 'crime rate' do you not understand? I think it's the 'rate' part, which means 'percentage', or 'number of crimes per capita', as I have voluminously indicated. Let me gently take your hand and slowly walk you through it, step by step...
Say that there are two ethnic groups (let's call them Group 1 and Group 2) in a particular population, and that each comprises half the population (I know that in the case we are discussing, it is really a 10:1 ratio; my example makes the math simpler and easier, but does not render the mathematical principles, or the highers and lowers, less valid). Let's further say that 3/4 of Group 1 are above the poverty line, and that 3/4 of Group 2 are below it. Let's also say that those above the poverty line commit 10 crimes per 1000 people per year, and that those below the poverty line commit 20 crimes per 1000 people per year. Remember that the fact that members of the lower socioeconomic classes commit more crimes per capita is beyond serious dispute.
Since, in our simplified model, each group comprises half the population, our aggregate crime rate would be 10 + 20 / 1000 + 1000, or 30/2000, or 15 per 1000 (halfway between 10 and 20).
If Group 1 is eliminated, the crime rate would change thusly: Since 3/4 of Group 2, which is left, is below the poverty line, 3/4 of them commit crimes at the higer rate. Thus, we add multiply the higher rate by three, add one of the lower rate, and divide by four. This leaves us with the following:
3 x 20/1000 + 1 x 10/1000 = 70/4000, or a crome rate of 17.5/1000, which is 2.5/1000 HIGHER than the 15/1000 aggregate of both groups.
If Group 2 is eliminated, we have a reverse equation;
3 x 10/1000 + 1 x 20/1000 = 50/4000, or a crime rate of 12.5/1000, which is 2.5/1000 LOWER than the 15/1000 aggregate of both groups.
Bill Bennett chose to mention black babies (although he could have mentioned hispanic ones as well) because they are disproportionately represented in the lower income classes relative to the aggregate average, and members of the lower income classes commit a higher share of crimes than members of higher income classes. It is an exercise in concretely applying a logical law (if 'if A then B' and 'if B then C' are postulated, then 'if A then C' logically follows):
Premise 1: If one is black, one is more likely to be poor (if A then B) Premise 2: If one is poor, one is more likely to commit crimes (if B then C) Conclusion: Therefore, if one is black, one is more likely to commit crimes (if A then C)
And in fact, statistics show this to indeed be the case.
OF COURSE poor whites, jews and asians commit proportionately more crimes than their more affluent brethren, because they are in a lower socioeconomic class. But they make up a much smaller PERCENTAGE of their ethnic populations than do poor blacks and poor hispanics. A much greater percentage of blacks and hispanics are poor, and therefore a much greater percentage of them are more likely to commit crimes. It's simple mathematics. That the poor exist in all ethnic groups is a fact, but this fact, to be in any way informative, must be supplemented by WHAT PERCENTAGE of poor in each group exists, and which groups have proportionately greater or lesser percentages of poor than other groups.
And this is how your statement that:
actually, crime rate will go down if every white baby in the country is aborted or if every hispanic baby is aborted or if every asian baby is aborted.
is conclusively, mathematically and logically refuted (except for the hispanic part).
This truth may be distasteful to some, but truth has never been a respecter of individual tastes, all those new-age white-light fluffybunny "there is my reality and there is your reality" pronouncements to the contrary. There is, rather, one reality, which we all view from differing perspectives.
You are right that, probably due to a genetic gender-based based aggression potential differential, more crimes are committed by males than by females (and more crimes are committed by the young than by the elderly, also), but this is off the point, although he could've suggested aborting all boy babies and it would've been a reasonable premise for his reductio ad absurdum argument, but confused by the following caveat: if everyone were aborted, the crime rate would fall to zero once the human race reached extinction, and if all members of either gender were aborted, that extinction would eventully follow.
And ALL crimes are included in the aggregate rate, whether white collar or blue collar, whether it be a fundamentalist christian white raping his young daughter or an urban inner-city black gunning down an elderly neighbor for her social security money or Martha Stewart. Each counts for one instance of a committed crime - no more, no less. I'm not picking or choosing which of the legally recognized crimes to call crimes for the purpose of Bill Bennett's statement, although I would, as I have previously indicated, abolish some presently extant criminal categories (victimless crimes) were it in my power to do so.
BTW: you're continuing to call Bill Bennett's statement racist, in the face of irrefutable and overwhelming evidence to the contrary (the statement itself, in which he immediately and explicitly condemns the execrability of anyone actually attempting to concretely implement his abstract theoretical reductio ad absurdum thought experiment), I find to be merely annoying.
As to whether Bill Bennett would like to see public school fail, his statement is mainly descriptive; public school IS failing in the US, and he would like to see less of education failing to educate students - as would we all (at least the compassionate and rational among us). He and I most certainly disagree upon the solution, for if public education were to be abolished and government payment vouchers were issued to all students, the resulting massive privatized educational bureaucracy would become the public education ststem by default, just as soon as the government asserted its right to dictate what was happening in a system that was being funded by it.
RE: virus: Re:abort black babies and cut crime
« Reply #9 on: 2005-10-06 18:33:23 »
[Blunderov] I think what bothers me about that statement is that it seems to imply that 'blacks' are born criminal. I know he does not actually say this in as many words but that implication hangs in the air like a rancid fart. I share Mermaids objections to it.
Why not, for instance, say instead that compulsory sterilization of blacks would bring down the crime rate. Or better education? Or more employment opportunities? Or, or, or...
No, Bill Bennett does not contend that blacks are born criminal, and I see no evidence of such an implication in his statement. The cause of disproportionate black criminality in the US is, quite simply, not addressed in it, and it is already well known and verified both that socioeconomic deprivation leads to increased criminality, and that a disproportionate percentage of blacks are socioeconomically deprived, which would lead to the default conclusion that most black criminals, like most other criminals, are made, not born. Bill Bennett may indeed be racist (I cannot plumb the murky depths of his heart in order to ascertain this one way or another), but his statement cannot be linguistically construed in any valid manner to provide evidence of any racist proclivities on his part. Perhaps the statement is unintentionally functioning as a Rorshact ink blot, and the existence of such suspicions in some folks' response to it but not in the responses of others has more to teach us about the predispositive mind(set)s of its beholders with regard to its author than it has to teach us concerning its author himself.
What part of 'crime rate' do you not understand? I think it's the 'rate' part, which means 'percentage', or 'number of crimes per capita', as I have voluminously indicated. Let me gently take your hand and slowly walk you through it, step by step...
gosh. you sound so much like someone else who used to frequent this place.
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Say that there are two ethnic groups (let's ca SNIPPED
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is conclusively, mathematically and logically refuted (except for the hispanic part).
because it was based upon an assumption that there are two groups of people who comprise exactly half of the population, i think i will pass on this 'conclusive' mathematically and logical refutation.
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This truth may be distasteful to some
that if black babies are aborted, there would be lesser crime than if white babies are aborted?
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BTW: you're continuing to call Bill Bennett's statement racist, in the face of irrefutable and overwhelming evidence to the contrary (the statement itself, in which he immediately and explicitly condemns the execrability of anyone actually attempting to concretely implement his abstract theoretical reductio ad absurdum thought experiment), I find to be merely annoying.
the thrust of bill bennett's argument was anti abortion. it was not a statement that was meant to condemn the eventual elimation of an entire people. i think it is laughable that anyone would even consider that bill bennett's statement did not have any racist slant.
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As to whether Bill Bennett would like to see public school fail, his statement is mainly descriptive; public school IS failing in the US, and he would like to see less of education failing to educate students - as would we all (at least the compassionate and rational among us).
regardless of whether or not public schools deserve to fail, this is a man who when he was the secretary of education opposed internet in public schools. the reason he cited was that he would rather see public schools fail and that he would rather see private schools succeed.
Why not, for instance, say instead that compulsory sterilization of blacks would bring down the crime rate.
i think that would be racist too.
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Or better education? Or more employment opportunities? Or, or, or...
you see, the discussion was not about blacks or race or crime. it was about abortion. bill bennett effectively injected an innuendo and a scare mongering tactic that 'informs' people that blacks are responsible for the majority of crimes. that people are defending his statement citing statistics and facts show that he has succeeded in creating a divisive society regardless of whether or not that was his intent. his intent, we may never know.
let us remember..the caller said that if it were not for abortions, there would be an increased burden on social security...bennett argued with that point by saying that abortion is not right..even if it means that crime will be reduced by aborting black babies..of course, implying that blacks are mostly criminals....
Mermaid, I apologize. I actually had dared to hope that, for once, you might actually concede your debating position to a superior logical argument, one the merit of which any honest logician would be forced to acknowledge. But that would assume that you had the capacity or desire to comprehend it. Instead, you revert to another indulgence in a conclusively logically and linguistically refuted and banal instance of a name-calling slur, one which Bill Bennet's own statement conclusively belied. But that context does not serve your condemnatory purpose, so you dismiss or ignore it, and that is the laughable thing. The Rorshact to which I earlier referred has, by means of your own responses, indeed categorized, not Bill Bennett, but you. The truth to which I referred is that there would be a lesser aggregate CRIME RATE if the crime rate of the black population were removed from the aggregate crime rate than if the crime rate of the black population were removed from the aggregate. This evidentially indisputable fact may be uncomfortable for some. However, it is not due to any differeing genetic predispositions between the groups, but due to their differing socioeconomic strata. Whether the group populations are even or 10: 1 does not matter as to the direction that the increases or decreases take, only to their degree, and the same may be said of whether a group commits precisely twice as much crime as another or merely some other higher degree, just as it is equally true that three is greater than two and that thirty is. But (and I should have learned this lesson long ago) there is no convincing the willfully noncomprehending. I now know that I am faced with someone who would internimably assert that 2 + 2 = 5, and indeed in a way has done the logical equivalent of this, if it validated their own personal prejudices with regards to the person under discussion. I am through with this particular debate, and leave it to the viewers of it to ascertain for themselves who did and did not prove their position. If they possess both honesty and logical acumen, I harbor no doubt as to their judgment in this matter.
If you can furnish the school quote to which you keep referring, I would like to see it - with internet-accessible references; otherise I will be forced to conclude that it is merely another attempt at spiteful and false character assassination.
Mermaid, I apologize. I actually had dared to hope that, for once, you might actually concede your debating position to a superior logical argument, one the merit of which any honest logician would be forced to acknowledge. But that would assume that you had the capacity or desire to comprehend it. Instead, you revert to another indulgence in a conclusively logically and linguistically refuted and banal instance of a name-calling slur, one which Bill Bennet's own statement conclusively belied. But that context does not serve your condemnatory purpose, so you dismiss or ignore it, and that is the laughable thing. The Rorshact to which I earlier referred has, by means of your own responses, indeed categorized, not Bill Bennett, but you.
i know who you are. please fuck off.
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If you can furnish the school quote to which you keep referring, I would like to see it - with internet-accessible references; otherise I will be forced to conclude that it is merely another attempt at spiteful and false character assassination.
When I was chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (1993-97), I asked Bill Bennett to visit my office so that I could ask him for help in seeking legislation that would pay for internet access in all classrooms and libraries in the country. Eventually Senators Olympia Snowe and Jay Rockefeller, with the White House leadership of President Clinton and Vice President Gore, put that provision in the Telecommunications Law of 1996, and today nearly 90% of all classrooms and libraries do have such access. The schools covered were public and private. So far the federal funding (actually collected from everyone as part of the phone bill) has been matched more or less equally with school district funding to total about $20 billion over the last seven years. More than 90% of all teachers praise the impact of such technology on their work. At any rate, since Mr. Bennett had been Secretary of Education I asked him to support the bill in the crucial stage when we needed Republican allies. He told me he would not help, because he did not want public schools to obtain new funding, new capability, new tools for success. He wanted them, he said, to fail so that they could be replaced with vouchers,charter schools, religious schools, and other forms of private education. Well, I thought, at least he's candid about his true views.