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Topic: green mars-kim stanley robinson (Read 1389 times) |
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Mermaid
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green mars-kim stanley robinson
« on: 2004-02-23 12:15:15 » |
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i know this is the second of the trilogy, but this is what i could get my hands on..around page 200 now..anyone else have read it? comments?
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Mermaid
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Re:green mars-kim stanley robinson
« Reply #1 on: 2004-02-24 14:05:58 » |
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one of the characters comes up with a solution for population control on an earth where treatments for aging and dying is available to most people....in one scene, a group of people play thought experiements...and one of the games is to devise a solution to overpopulation...
our character comes with something that seemed rather novel and creative to me...here, the world govt will "allow" every person the right to have "three fourth" children. when two people decide to have a child, they can have one child together and one half child credit. they can either sell this half credit to someone who wishes to have two children or buy another half child credit if they wish to add another one to their family. this way, only those who can afford to have children will be able to bring them into the world. the forces of demand and supply shall determine the price of the child credits. makes one wonder...will this ever happen irl? pros and cons?
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romanov
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Re:green mars-kim stanley robinson
« Reply #2 on: 2004-02-24 20:59:00 » |
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Yeah, I've heard of similar ideas for population control (Of course, it helps if you buy into the Malthusian line that changing demographics will affect civilisation negatively). As a matter of fact I was considering doing some fiction writing myself on this very same subject a year or so back.
All these types of measures work along the same underlying principle- tying reproduction to market forces. The rationale being that this is somehow more humane than the state controlling reproduction.
Unfortunately I think this is missing the point. I won't go into things like conflicts of interest or market failure, or even how you would enforce the system. I will point out the simple evolutionary fact that humans have evolved to resent being told how to manage their fertility.
When a conflict between human nature and a social system arises, beit political or economic, repression is the result. The best example of an economic system being at odds with our evolved nature is slavery. It (slavery) arose out of economic need in pre-industrial societies, but required the full and brutal repression of an organised state to maintain.
The idea behind tying fertility to market forces is presumably to prevent a large, repressive state security from being necessary to enforce the system. I doubt very much it would work this way, however. I think that a large and tyrannical state apparatus would quickly become necessary to protect the system from cheaters.
The only nation to manage population control in this way with any success has been China. Not exactly the Land of the Free.
I'm not even going to start on the potential for social unrest and ethnic and religious conflict it potentially could start, with large underclasses effectively cut out of reproducing.
To be succinct, the idea sucks. But I see it happening anyway.
romanov
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Mermaid
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Re:green mars-kim stanley robinson
« Reply #3 on: 2004-02-24 23:19:28 » |
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do you think people will resent being awarded child credits if it was so deemed by a religious authority?
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romanov
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Re:green mars-kim stanley robinson
« Reply #4 on: 2004-02-25 14:01:58 » |
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People refuse to use contraception- effectively abdicating their ability to control their own fertility- because of organised religion right here and now. The chief culprit here is the Catholic Church, but there are other examples. Organised religion works by wanting to control the central facets of a society. They don't come more central than the way it propagates itself.
In the end, organised religions inevitably change their doctrine to the one that best maintains their influence at that particular time. Those that don't, die out. In the west for example, mass education, state churches and the growth of the middle class has the severely reduced the Catholic Church's ability to influence western attitudes towards sex, especially in Europe. The result? The Church has turned its attention to the developing world, helping to turn the AIDS epidemic into a near genocide. I've actually watched film footage of Vatican-sponsored "Condom Bonfires".
Any attempt by the state to control fertility or to tie it to the market would inevitably bring it in conflict with religious groups. All religions claim a monopoly on telling people (typically women) what to do with their bodies.
romanov
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Mermaid
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Re:green mars-kim stanley robinson
« Reply #5 on: 2004-02-26 11:03:54 » |
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hello romanov..i agree with everything you have said...however, if a religion were to adopt the author's solution for population control, will the public be more eager to adopt it...(even though it works against the religion's ability to increase its flock..but we'll ignore that)
i think my point is that people will listen only...ONLY..when they are given instructions...while you may wonder about the futility of it when you realise that you dont have followers..just sheep...it can get depressing...but the fact still remains that...sometimes even intelligent and rational folks are better at following orders than initiating something useful...why?
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romanov
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Re:green mars-kim stanley robinson
« Reply #6 on: 2004-02-26 13:09:20 » |
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Quote from: Mermaid on 2004-02-26 11:03:54
...however, if a religion were to adopt the author's solution for population control, will the public be more eager to adopt it... |
Maybe. But that's generally not how a religion works- they don't work by allowing things-ie positive rights... they work by denying things from their adherents. It is, in the end, about power, and its rationalisation.
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it can get depressing...but the fact still remains that...sometimes even intelligent and rational folks are better at following orders than initiating something useful...why?
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It depresses me. The fact is that humans are pack animals, with pack animal tendencies- we possess hierarchies and form them instinctively in social situations. Then we rationalise them after the fact.
The best we can hope for (barring some pretty substantial genetic engineering or behavourist conditioning) is to be consciously aware of our own mental shortcomings as a species. Then we can develop counter-measures, both as individuals and as groups, against some of our evolved natures nastier side-effects.
romanov
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