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David Lucifer
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virus: ImmInst Book Project
« on: 2003-12-16 12:07:17 »
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I've received a personal invitation from Bruce J. Klein to contribute
a chapter to the Immortality Institute's book project>> http://imminst.org/book/

I think this would be an excellent opportunity to spread some CoV memes,
so I would like to open the discussion here on the list and tonight in
the weekly chat on defining a CoV position on immortality.

Is immortality desirable? feasible? probable? inevitable? If not true
immortality, then how about longevity (120+ years) or superlongevity (1000+ years)?
What are the costs and benefits? What are the best ways to approach it?
Which groups are headed in the right direction? Which groups do we oppose?

-- David Lucifer
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Rhysenn
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Re:virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #1 on: 2003-12-16 13:01:03 »
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I'm not going to be here for the chat. But my thoughts on immortality: I'm opposed to it. I feel that death is natural and is meant to happen, and delaying death to a great extent can wreak havoc on the ecosystem and the environment. Humans may favor immortality to achieve their own ends, but i think the most important thing is to keep the grand scope of things in mind and attempt to maintain a balance with the natural environment. The world is overpopulated enough as it is, if the mortality rate keeps decreasing in relation to the birth rate poverty will greatly increase and standards of living will plummet.
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prometheus
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Re:virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #2 on: 2003-12-16 14:50:58 »
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Quote from: Rhysenn on 2003-12-16 13:01:03   

I'm not going to be here for the chat. But my thoughts on immortality: I'm opposed to it. I feel that death is natural and is meant to happen, and delaying death to a great extent can wreak havoc on the ecosystem and the environment. Humans may favor immortality to achieve their own ends, but i think the most important thing is to keep the grand scope of things in mind and attempt to maintain a balance with the natural environment. The world is overpopulated enough as it is, if the mortality rate keeps decreasing in relation to the birth rate poverty will greatly increase and standards of living will plummet.

Unfortunately your response typifies the knee jerk uninformed reaction to life extension commonly found in today's society.

"death is natural..." and therefore good is indulging in the naturalistic fallacy.

Overpopulation is not necessarily a result of a longer life span. The Japanese have the world's longest lifespans and they are in a demographic death spiral.

The birth rate is declining almost universally. I would be eager to quote my sources if you are willing to reveal yours.

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metahuman
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Re:virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #3 on: 2003-12-16 20:46:47 »
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[Rhysenn]
I'm not going to be here for the chat. But my thoughts on immortality: I'm opposed to it. I feel that death is natural and is meant to happen, and delaying death to a great extent can wreak havoc on the ecosystem and the environment. Humans may favor immortality to achieve their own ends, but i think the most important thing is to keep the grand scope of things in mind and attempt to maintain a balance with the natural environment. The world is overpopulated enough as it is, if the mortality rate keeps decreasing in relation to the birth rate poverty will greatly increase and standards of living will plummet.

[metahuman]
http://www.imminst.org/

Read the FAQ and then answer these questions.

Reproduction is natural.
Why do we need to reproduce? What purpose does reproduction serve?

Death is natural.
Why do we as biological machines perish? What purpose does death serve?

The pursuit of immortality is natural.
Why do we strive for longer lifespans? What purpose would immortality serve?

It's all very simple.
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David Lucifer
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Re: Re:virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #4 on: 2003-12-17 09:40:13 »
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> [Rhysenn]
> I'm not going to be here for the chat. But my thoughts on
> immortality: I'm opposed to it. I feel that death is natural and is
> meant to happen, and delaying death to a great extent can wreak havoc
> on the ecosystem and the environment.

[Lucifer] I'm afraid I really don't understand the viewpoint that values death over life.

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simul
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Re: Re:virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #5 on: 2003-12-17 10:34:23 »
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I have to agree with David here. 

Do a Google search for "Malthus and sustainable human population".

Would you go so far as to kill, legislate or otherwise forcibly stop people from seeking physical immortality?

George Bush has already done so, and his idiotic mouthpeice Leon Kass agrees.

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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Re:virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #6 on: 2003-12-17 11:20:29 »
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Some Web references on Overpopulation.

Cato Institute on Overpopulation
http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-ps720.html

The Population Implosion?
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.8293/pub_detail.asp

Is Human Population Really the Problem?
http://www.jefflindsay.com/Overpop.shtml

Social Implications of the human genome project (Extended longevity).
http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/soci/staff/riaz/genomeproject/3.htm

Nanotechnological Prolongevity: The Down Side
http://www.cla.sc.edu/ENGL/faculty/berube/prolong.htm

Should we extend the human lifespan indefinitely?
http://www.biologyofhumanaging.com/sanjose/shouldwe/shld_nts.htm

Overpopulation concerned groups.
http://allfreeessays.com/student/free/Overpopulation.shtml

Robert Bradbury addresses issues of Longevity including overpopulation.
http://www.aeiveos.com/issues.html

Welcome Baby Six Billion!
http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0073.html

Environmentalist debunks eco-scares
http://www.free-market.net/forums/environment9906/messages/119269266.html

A review of THE SKEPTICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST
Measuring the Real State Of the World
By Bjorn Lomborg

Malthusian Twaddle
Overpopulation fiction in the novel Ishmael  http://www.reason.com/rb/rb072303.shtml
Ronald Bailey

Overpopulation web sites.
Overpopulation.net
http://www.overpopulation.net/

Overpopulation.org http://www.overpopulation.org/
In November 1991, Jacques-Yves Cousteau reportedly said, in response to an interviewer's question, "Some snakes, mosquitoes, and other animal species pose threats or dangers for humankind. Can they be eliminated like viruses that cause certain diseases?," Cousteau said:] "Getting rid of viruses is an admirable idea, but it raises enormous problems. In the first 1,400 years of the Christian era, population numbers were virtually stationary. Through epidemics, nature compensated for excess births by excess deaths. I talked about this problem with the director of the Egyptian Academy of Sciences. He told me that scientists were appalled to think that by the year 2080 the population of Egypt might reach 250 million. What should we do to eliminate suffering and disease? It's a wonderful idea but perhaps not altogether a beneficial one in the long run. If we try to implement it we may jeopardize the future of our species. It's terrible to have to say this. World population must be stabilized and to do that we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. This is so horrible to contemplate that we shouldn't even say it. But the general situation in which we are involved is lamentable." Bahgat Elnadi and Adel Rifaat, "Interview With Jacques-Yves Cousteau," The UNESCO Courier, November 1991, p. 13

Overpopulation.com seems to take life extension as a given.
Actually seems to be optimistic that we will be able to deal with the problems.
www.overpopulation.com
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simul
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Re: virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #7 on: 2003-12-19 18:42:31 »
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: Is immortality desirable?

I desire it for myself.  Although I can see some social challenges arising from an immortal society, I would not seek to restrict or block others from that which I personally desire.  The process of "preventing immortality" seems, to me, to be more cruel than any side effect of an immortal humanity.

: feasible? probable? inevitable?

I would like to bring up the distinction between "emortality and immortality".  I got this from the book "Fountain of Youth", which I highly reccomend to anyone interested in this area.  Emortality is "living forever barring some unforseen accident or occurance".  Immortality is "living forever".  Emortalisty is feasable within our lifetime.  Immortality is, well, a goal that you will never reach, but that you can always strive for.

If we focused on this issue, and made the technology open and available, and accidental or violent deaths do not increase, it will be possible for healthy individuals who are alive in 2035 and can afford to own a home to live to 1000 years.

At that time, all war will be called "terrorism", and there will be one unified government which is generally perceived as benign by most people.  True transhumanism will be available only to the military and to outlaws.

Space will be colonized, as was America, by transhumanist outlaws.

: What are the costs and benefits?

It's more fun than sitting around and waiting for the sun to swallow the Earth.

: What are the best ways to approach it?

Imagine you've been giveb a job.  You have to tranquelize a wounded grizzly bear, put it in a restraint, and take it in for treatment.  How would I approach that task?

: Which groups are headed in the right direction?

Gaean/bio-transhumanists  at transhumanism.org and betterhumans.com.  The Center for Cognitive Liberty.  Landmark Education.

: Which groups do we oppose?

Anyone who would seek to keep science solely in the hands of the military/industrial complex.  For example the Bush administration promotes stem-cell research in corporations, but has banned it from universities. 

The last thing we need is a class-war in the area of longevity where a wealthy few get to play God with peoples lives.  Humanity might not survive a socialist revolution in the age of bio-warfare.

Even if it takes a little longer, these resources must be made available with open, published research as opposed to closed and secretive patents on our very lives.

Then again, if you had to choose an operating system to run you life, where "crashing" is death, which would you choose: Linux or Microsoft?
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
David Lucifer
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Re: virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #8 on: 2003-12-20 10:30:56 »
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Erik Aronesty wrote:

> I would like to bring up the distinction between "emortality and
> immortality".  I got this from the book "Fountain of Youth", which I
> highly reccomend to anyone interested in this area.  Emortality is
> "living forever barring some unforseen accident or occurance".
> Immortality is "living forever".  Emortalisty is feasable within our
> lifetime.  Immortality is, well, a goal that you will never reach,
> but that you can always strive for. 

That came up during the chat, but we lacked the terminology to make
this important distinction. Just wondering, why emortal rather than
amortal? Does the author explain the etymology of the neologism?
   
> If we focused on this issue, and made the technology open and
> available, and accidental or violent deaths do not increase, it will
> be possible for healthy individuals who are alive in 2035 and can
> afford to own a home to live to 1000 years.

That's the same reasoning I used to answer the new poll at>>
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/index.php?board=54;action=voteResults;idvote=57
though I think the drop dead date is closer to 2050, 2035 is certainly
possible. The poll was tough to answer because there is this point
of instability at the drop dead date like a sphere perched on a ridge
where the slightest perturbation could send it down either side, in
this case into permanent death or emortality. In other words, most
people who die before 2050 will live less than 100 years, while those
who die after 2050 will live on average 1000+ years.
 
> At that time, all war will be called "terrorism", and there will be
> one unified government which is generally perceived as benign by most
> people.  True transhumanism will be available only to the military
> and to outlaws. 

James Halperin's books, The Truth Machine and The First Immortal,
are set in the same future with a world govt scenario. Definitely
worth reading.

> Space will be colonized, as was America, by transhumanist outlaws.

Hmm, perhaps.

>> What are the costs and benefits?
>
> It's more fun than sitting around and waiting for the sun to swallow
> the Earth.

True, but the question is how much would you pay now for a chance
at living longer? It is a lottery, and there are structured ways
of thinking about the decision (I suggest).

>
>> What are the best ways to approach it?
>
> Imagine you've been giveb a job.  You have to tranquelize a wounded
> grizzly bear, put it in a restraint, and take it in for treatment.
> How would I approach that task? 

I would hire a professional.

>> Which groups are headed in the right direction?
>
> Gaean/bio-transhumanists  at transhumanism.org and betterhumans.com.

What do you think of James Hughes's "democratic transhumanism"?
We could have a good debate here...

> The Center for Cognitive Liberty.  Landmark Education.

I was impressed by Wrye Sententia's presentation at Transvision this year.
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/who.html

I'm still skeptical of Landmark but I'll keep an open mind.

> Then again, if you had to choose an operating system to run you life,
> where "crashing" is death, which would you choose: Linux or
> Microsoft? 

I use both and both have crashed on me more times than I care to remember.
I tend to use Windows for desktop and linux for server apps. Which is
closer to running a life?

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Jukka E Isosaari
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Re: virus: ImmInst Book Project
« Reply #9 on: 2003-12-20 11:41:53 »
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