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Topic: virus: New virian virtue (Read 4447 times) |
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Blunderov
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"We think in generalities, we live in details"
  
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RE: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #1 on: 2003-11-10 02:00:43 » |
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Erik Aronesty
> Sent: 10 November 2003 0237
> Can we, please, add integrity?
> ---
[Blunderov]
I would be inclined to agree but I have a reservation. Is integrity not
an antonym of hypocrisy? If this is true then it may be redundant to add
integrity, hypocrisy being a Virian sin.
That said; I do believe the brain responds to positive instruction
better than they do to negative prohibition.
I have an example to back this up which may interest Dr. Sebby. A golfer
standing on a teeing area in front of which is a water hazard may easily
sabotage himself by giving himself the instruction NOT to hit the ball
into the water. This makes an image in his mind of the result that he
least wishes! The subconscious then proceeds to do everything within its
power to actualize the picture that it has been given to work with.
Far better for the golfer to give himself the instruction to hit the
ball OVER the water and to form that image in his mind instead.
Best Regards
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metahuman
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Re:virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #2 on: 2003-11-10 09:27:42 » |
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That's called confidence, B.
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David Lucifer
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #3 on: 2003-11-10 12:03:05 » |
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From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com>
> Can we, please, add integrity?
What do you mean be integrity? Is someone that has integrity necessarily
virtuous?
How does it relate to the existing sins and virtues? Is it always rational to
maintain integrity? Can one be dogmatic about their integrity? Is integrity
implicit in any or all of the virtues, or (as Blunderov has already suggested)
is it implicit in the denial of at least one of the sins?
David
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Kalkor
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RE: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #4 on: 2003-11-10 12:24:59 » |
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[Blunderov]
<snip>
That said; I do believe the brain responds to positive instruction
better than they do to negative prohibition.
I have an example to back this up which may interest Dr. Sebby. A golfer
standing on a teeing area in front of which is a water hazard may easily
sabotage himself by giving himself the instruction NOT to hit the ball
into the water. This makes an image in his mind of the result that he
least wishes! The subconscious then proceeds to do everything within its
power to actualize the picture that it has been given to work with.
Far better for the golfer to give himself the instruction to hit the
ball OVER the water and to form that image in his mind instead.
Best Regards
[Metahuman]
That's called confidence, B.
[Kalkor]
From
http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=confidence&mat
chtype=exact
1. a sense of assurance, faith, or trust in a person or thing, or in
oneself.
2. a secret.
3. reliance on another to keep a secret.
Visualizing a successful outcome (or a failure) does not fit into the
category of "confidence", imho. The golfer in question can have all the
confidence in the world, conciously, yet visualizing that ball plonking into
the water can make that outcome happen.
This sort of exercise actually fits into the category of imagery if I'm not
mistaken, which is entirely separate from confidence. The biggest difference
I can see just off-hand is that mental rehearsal appears to improve
performance even in the absence of confidence. In fact, one of the suggested
uses of performance imagery is to improve confidence.
For some excellent information about mental rehearsal in the context of
sports performance, see
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol26/table.htm
There was a recent study done by some cats at Cornell on the relationship
between confidence and competence. Their findings were that those who are
least competent at a task were also those who are most confident. However,
all studies I've seen on positive visualization rehearsal resulted in
improved performance. In other words, being confident in your abilities
doesn't necessarily result in improved performance, whereas visualization
does.
For most motor actions, concious signals from the cerebral cortex
(pyramidal) are modified by unconcious signals from everywhere else in the
brain (extrapyramidal) to generate coordinated movement. These
extrapyramidal signals can come from the cerebellum (proprioception) and
limbic system (emotion) for example. When you reach for a glass of water,
you're conciously willing your arm to reach out and your hand to grasp. But
you're not conciously controlling all the minute muscular contractions and
relaxations that result in your balance changing, your depth perception, the
precise motor control required to hold the glass without crushing or
dropping it.
In the example of sports performance, visualization seems to give your
extrapyramidal modifiers something to work with. "When I perform this task,
my body should look like *this*." Or, "When I hit the ball, it should go
*plonk* into the water."
The consistent results achieved through visualization exercises can be used
to *correctly* build confidence. If you feel like you can't do it, but then
you visualize doing it correctly and as a result do it correctly, this tends
to improve your confidence in your abilities through demonstration.
And hey, at least I didn't digress into the topic of confidence vs efficacy.
Anyone wanna tackle that beauty?
Kalkor
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simul
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #5 on: 2003-11-10 15:28:58 » |
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: What do you mean be integrity?
I mean doing what you say you would do.
: Is someone that has integrity necessarily virtuous?
No, they are merely inneffective. And they waste other people's time and resources.
: How does it relate to the existing sins and virtues?
It is orthoganal, with a purpose to motivate them.
: Is it always rational to maintain integrity?
What is rational about saying you will do something when you will not?
: Can one be dogmatic about their integrity?
I would contend that one can be dogmatic about anything. The mere act of writing down virtues at all creates a dogma.
: Is integrity implicit in any or all of the virtues, or (as Blunderov has already suggested) is it implicit in the denial of at least one of the sins?
There is no clear definition of Integrity in the existing virtues.
Adding it will expand the growth of COV.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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simul
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Re: Re:virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #6 on: 2003-11-10 16:59:26 » |
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> That's called confidence, B.
Please elaborate how "doing what you say" is "confidence". If anything it
can be humbling to have Integrity.
- Erik
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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David Lucifer
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Enlighten me.
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #7 on: 2003-11-10 17:17:33 » |
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com>
> : Is someone that has integrity necessarily virtuous?
>
> No, they are merely inneffective. And they waste other people's time and resources.
I assume you meant the opposite?
> : How does it relate to the existing sins and virtues?
>
> It is orthoganal, with a purpose to motivate them.
It is not orthogonal if integrity is logically the opposite of hypocrisy.
If your definition differs, could you elaborate?
> : Is it always rational to maintain integrity?
>
> What is rational about saying you will do something when you will not?
Wouldn't that depend on the circumstances?
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Blunderov
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RE: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #8 on: 2003-11-10 17:42:52 » |
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David McFadzean
> Sent: 11 November 2003 0018
> > What is rational about saying you will do something when you will
not?
>
> Wouldn't that depend on the circumstances?
[Blunderov]
It may in fact be normal to be deceitful. I read somewhere once that one
of the consequences of symbolic language is that it gives us the ability
to lie. If I recall correctly, it was asserted that, because of this,
lying is a behaviour found only in the human species.
I'm not entirely sure that this is really true - but the only example I
can think of that might falsify this is when my cats have successfully
persuaded me that they haven't been fed and have manipulated me into
providing a second sitting. It must be said though, that this may be a
rather anthropomorphic interpretation.
An ironic thought though - that one of the main uses of language is to
deceive.
Best Regards
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simul
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #9 on: 2003-11-10 17:42:32 » |
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> > : Is someone that has integrity necessarily virtuous?
> >
> > No, they are merely inneffective. And they waste other people's time
and resources.
>
> I assume you meant the opposite?
Right! There I was talking about people's time and resources, and wasting
them myself.
> > : How does it relate to the existing sins and virtues?
> > It is orthoganal, with a purpose to motivate them.
> It is not orthogonal if integrity is logically the opposite of hypocrisy.
> If your definition differs, could you elaborate?
I agree that they are similar.
However, "having integrity" can be more motivating than "not being
hypocritical". I think this was mentioned elsewhere.
And I want COV to succeed. Really.
> > : Is it always rational to maintain integrity?
> > What is rational about saying you will do something when you will not?
> Wouldn't that depend on the circumstances?
When you lack integrity, you waste people's time and energy. Integrity is
not some"absolute". People have "measures" of integrity. For example if I
tell someone I'm going to be there at 5:00, and I call them, tell them I'll
be late, and show up at 5:01, I lack some integrity. But if I don't show up
at alll, I lack a whole lot of integrity.
Plus there is the "overlap" issue. I may commit to social change in a
certain area. This commitment may create a conflict where I must violate
previous social contracts in order to uphold new ones.
The point is not that a person "must always be in integrity". The point is
that it is a "virtue"... a generally desireably and rarely fully attainable
state of being.... in Integrity.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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metahuman
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Re:virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #10 on: 2003-11-10 19:54:30 » |
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Simul, your question directed towards me was adequately answered by Kalkor's reply. By the way, Blunderov is B. He has a "B" in his alias. You do not, S. ;p
confidence:
a sense of assurance, faith, or trust in a person or thing, or in oneself.
self-esteem:
confidence or pride in oneself; self-respect.
The golfer in Blunderov's example has low self-esteem.
The weak golfer says to himself, "Please don't hit the ball into the water. Please don't hit the ball into the water!"
A strong golfer thinks to himself, discreetly, that he is going to win.
Though I think a better example is the difference between the Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) and a DJ (Don Juan). The DJ will act and react with confidence in himself that everything he does is positive and that nothing can go wrong when he's in charge... and even when he is not. His confidence will shine through when flirting with a female and he will ultimately succeed whether or not he gets the girl. This is the alpha male.
On the otherhand, the AFC will worry what she'll say when--if--he asks her out. If he talks to her, he'll overanalyze what she says asking himself, "What does she mean by 'okay'?" Sometimes he'll place his mark on a pedestal and call her a goddess. He'll think he is less than she and can never measure up to her beauty. The AFC will lose because he is not confident in himself. This is the male with his tail between his legs, whimpering, and running off into the woods alone.
Then there's the con artist who is not only confident in himself but also gives his victim confidence in exchange for money.
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simul
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #11 on: 2003-11-11 09:58:26 » |
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I agree with your analysis. And it points even more stroingly to Integrity.
If Integrity isn't a virtue, how can we COV's other virtues propagate - as a meme?
For example, we can request that all members tell their friends about COV. People can say they will, and not do it, and be internally consistent as Virtuous.
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First, read Bruce Sterling's "Distraction", and then read http://electionmethods.org.
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Kalkor
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RE: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #12 on: 2003-11-11 10:28:16 » |
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[Erik]
I agree with your analysis. And it points even more stroingly to Integrity.
If Integrity isn't a virtue, how can we COV's other virtues propagate - as a
meme?
For example, we can request that all members tell their friends about COV.
People can say they will, and not do it, and be internally consistent as
Virtuous.
[Kalkor]
It would seem reasonable to lie to my captors in certain situations in order
to escape. That is not integrity, nor is it hypocrisy, but it's reasonable
and pragmatic.
Kalkor
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David Lucifer
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #13 on: 2003-11-11 12:30:39 » |
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From: "Erik Aronesty" <erik@zoneedit.com>
> For example, we can request that all members tell their friends about COV.
> People can say they will, and not do it, and be internally consistent as Virtuous.
This seems to be exactly the same as avoid hypocrisy. Do you have any examples
of integrity that aren't the same as avoiding hypocrisy? If not, wouldn't
adding integrity be redundant? Or maybe it would be a good idea to add
positive opposites of all three sins?
David
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simul
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Re: virus: New virian virtue
« Reply #14 on: 2003-11-11 12:44:15 » |
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No that is an issue of overlapping integrity. You promise to yourself, you friends and your family that you will survive. You lie to your captors...as a last resort.
Sometimes you are put in a situation where you feel you must break one virtue in order to uphold another.
In those times you can use you other Virian virtues.
Vision - imagining a future which inspires me, which of these actions is consistent with that vision?
-----Original Message-----
From: "Kalkor" <kalkor@kalkor.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:28:16
To:<virus@lucifer.com>
Subject: RE: virus: New virian virtue
[Erik]
I agree with your analysis. And it points even more stroingly to Integrity.
If Integrity isn't a virtue, how can we COV's other virtues propagate - as a
meme?
For example, we can request that all members tell their friends about COV.
People can say they will, and not do it, and be internally consistent as
Virtuous.
[Kalkor]
It would seem reasonable to lie to my captors in certain situations in order
to escape. That is not integrity, nor is it hypocrisy, but it's reasonable
and pragmatic.
Kalkor
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