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   Author  Topic: Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win  (Read 11142 times)
Salamantis
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Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« on: 2005-10-07 12:19:05 »
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #1 on: 2005-10-10 11:18:44 »
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #2 on: 2005-10-10 23:48:37 »
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #3 on: 2005-10-10 23:55:53 »
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #4 on: 2005-10-25 19:20:31 »
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Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
By Douglas Kern
http://www.techcentralstation.com/100705C.html

It doesn't matter if you like it or not. It doesn't matter if you think it's true or not. Intelligent Design theory is destined to supplant Darwinism as the primary scientific explanation for the origin of human life. ID will be taught in public schools as a matter of course. It will happen in our lifetime. It's happening right now, actually.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

The right-wingers are running amuck at the present. ID may be a powerful creation myth, and the right-wingers may be successful in supplanting myth over science as the primary belief system in the United States, but ID can never supplant evolutionary theory as a scientific explanation for the simple reason that it is not science.


Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

Here's why:

    1) ID will win because it's a religion-friendly, conservative-friendly, red-state kind of theory, and no one will lose money betting on the success of red-state theories in the next fifty to one hundred years.
If the right wingers remain in power, there will not be a United states in fifty to one hundred years. Life on earth as we know it will end due to environmental disasters caused by the most powerful nation on earth being lead by religious zealots who have no clue of their relationship with nature.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

I've said it before and I'll say it again: families that reproduce people tend to reproduce ideas, as well. The most vocal non-scientist proponents of ID are those delightfully fertile Catholics, Evangelicals, and similarly right-leaning middle-class college-educated folk -- the kind whose children will inherit the country. Eventually, the social right will have the sheer manpower to teach ID wherever they please.
If this model prevails, the population will inevitably crash. But I think in the long run, more enlightened ideas will prevail as people see that only science that will protect them from pandemics and other disasters brought about by our poor stewardship of the earth, not Jesus.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

Despite what angry ID opponents may tell you, the advent of ID won't hurt American productivity a bit. Belief in ID does nothing to make believers less capable in science or engineering. No geek in the world will find his computer mojo diminished because of his opinions on irreducible complexity. To the contrary: ID might make biology and the natural sciences more appealing to believers who might otherwise find science to be too far removed from God's presence. As ID appeals to the conservative mindset without hurting anyone's skills, why wouldn't the social right embrace it?
There is more to survival than maintaining productivity rates. Skills may not be affected, but judgement is clearly impared.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

To be sure, believers don't need ID to accept modern science. The Catholic Church, for example, made peace with traditional Darwinist theory long ago. Many scientists see no contradiction between Darwinism and their own religious beliefs. Rightly understood, Darwinist theory doesn't diminish God's glory any more than any other set of rules governing the world. An omnipotent God can act through scientific media as well as miraculous interventions.
Of course the inverse is also true, believers of ID cannot accept modern science, and scientific thinkers cannot accept many tennants of the church.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

But if ID is correct, then the intelligent designer of life must have lavished astonishing care and attention upon the human race to give it unique dignity and value -- as well as handicaps and temptations that only virtue can overcome. The God of Moses and Jesus didn't leave fingerprints at this scene, but it's His MO all the way. And as believers are detectives of the Almighty's presence, they're naturally more inclined to follow the clues revealing that familiar pattern.
This is a beautiful example of circular logic!

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

    2) ID will win because the pro-Darwin crowd is acting like a bunch of losers.
Seems to me that Bush Administration won, but are acting like a bunch of losers.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

"Ewww…intelligent design people! They're just buck-toothed Bible-pushing nincompoops with community-college degrees who're trying to sell a gussied-up creationism to a cretinous public! No need to address their concerns or respond to their arguments. They are Not Science. They are poopy-heads."
The real arguement against ID is evolutionary science. ID hasn't been able to disprove a shred of it. In fact all it can do is make it stronger.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

There. I just saved you the trouble of reading 90% of the responses to the ID position. Vitriol, condescension, and endless accusations of bad faith all characterize far too much of the standard pro-Darwinian response to criticism. A reasonable observer might note that many ID advocates appear exceptionally well-educated, reasonable, and articulate; they might also note that ID advocates have pointed out many problems with the Darwinist catechism that even pro-Darwin scientists have been known to concede, when they think the Jesus-kissing crowd isn't listening. And yet, even in the face of a sober, thoughtful ID position, the pro-Darwin crowd insists on the same phooey-to-the-boobgeois shtick that was tiresome in Mencken's day. This is how losers act just before they lose: arrogant, self-satisfied, too important to be bothered with substantive refutation, and disdainful of their own faults. Pride goeth before a fall.
This is simply attacking the proponents of science, because ID cannot stand up as an arguement.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

    3) ID will win because it can be reconciled with any advance that takes place in biology, whereas Darwinism cannot yield even an inch of ground to ID.
There will be no advances in biology if we are satisfied with the answer "God did it" for everything we don't understand.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

So you've discovered the missing link? Proven that viruses distribute super-complex DNA proteins? Shown that fractals can produce evolution-friendly three-dimensional shapes? It doesn't matter. To the ID mind, you're just pushing the question further down the road. How was the missing link designed? What is the origin of the viruses? Who designed the fractals? ID has already made its peace with natural selection and the irrefutable aspects of Darwinism. By contrast, Darwinism cannot accept even the slightest possibility that it has failed to explain any significant dimension of evolution. It must dogmatically insist that it will resolve all of its ambiguities and shortcomings -- even the ones that have lingered since the beginning of Darwinism. The entire edifice of Darwinian theory comes crashing down with even a single credible demonstration of design in any living thing. Can science really plug a finger into every hole in the Darwinian dyke for the next fifty years?
No problem!

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

    4) ID will win because it can piggyback on the growth of information theory, which will attract the best minds in the world over the next fifty years.
More wishful thinking. The best minds understand science.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

ID is a proposition about information. It contends that the processes of life are so specific and carefully ordered that they must reflect deliberate action. Put simply: a complex message implies an even more complex sender. Separating ordered but random data from relevant, purposeful data -- that is, separating noise from messages -- is one of the key undertakings of the 21st century. In nearly every field, from statistics to quantum physics to cryptology to computer science, the smartest people on the planet are struggling to understand and apply the unfathomable power of information that modern technology has bequeathed to them. We have only scratched the surface of the problem-solving power that the Internet and cheap computing power open to us. As superior intellects strive to understand the metaphysics of information, they will find the information-oriented arguments of ID increasingly sensible and appealing. ID will fit nicely into the emerging worldview of tomorrow's intellectual elite.
Again, more wishful thinking. ID is a propositing about reducing information into a bible story that keeps workers in their place and the establishment in power.

Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-07 12:19:05   

This emerging worldview will take a more expansive view of science than does the current elite. Consider the "meme" meme. We all know what a meme is: a thought pattern that spreads from person to person and group to group like a viral infection spreading through a population. Yet memes cannot be bisected, or examined under a microscope, or "falsified" via the scientific method. Even so, we can make statements about memes with varying degrees of objective truthfulness. Is it possible to speak of a "science" of concepts? Right now, the scientific establishment says no. This unhelpful understanding of science will soon be discarded in favor of something more useful in the information age. 

    5) ID will win because ID assumes that man will find design in life -- and, as the mind of man is hard-wired to detect design, man will likely find what he seeks.

The human mind seeks order in everything. The entire body of knowledge available to mankind reflects our incorrigible desire to analyze, systemize, hypothesize, and theorize. It may well be that our brains are physically configured in such a way that we can't help but find order and design in the world. Don't look so surprised, evolutionists -- a brain attuned to order and design is a brain more likely to survive. The ability to detect design is essentially the ability to detect patterns, and the ability to detect patterns is the key to most applications of human intelligence. Hammers tend to find nails, screwdrivers tend to find screws, and the human mind tends to find design. Of course, the propensity to see designs doesn't mean that the designs aren't actually there. But the quintessential human perception is one of design -- and, to the extent that perceptions define reality, a theory built on the perception of design has a huge advantage over its competitors.

The only remaining question is whether Darwinism will exit gracefully, or whether it will go down biting, screaming, censoring, and denouncing to the bitter end. Rightly or wrongly, the future belongs to ID. There's nothing irreducibly complex about it.


You can dress it up as much as you like, but ID is nothing more than Christian biblical fundamentalism wearing a scientist's white lab in a pathetic attempt to appear credible.
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #5 on: 2005-10-27 00:17:17 »
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Salamantis (aka Joe Dees) proves himself yet again to be an ideal neo-con vector.  There is nothing new about Intelligent Design theory.  It is one of the most hackneyed argments in the creationist's playbook.  To lay it out here like it is some new shiney paradigm is to play right into the neocon ad campaign (something that Joe likes to do on cue).  The only thing I have discerned out of ID, aren't new ideas, but rather the simple absence of some of the least credible arguments -- 6000 year old universe, and other crazy literalisms.  So instead of saying "See how stupid we were", they put some new wrapping on it and claim it is something else.  A few new words are coined and some new bad examples used for the same already-discredited arguments.  I have yet to meet ANYBODY who was won over by the new advertising campaign.  The people embracing it were already on the creationist bandwagon as far as I can tell and often admit on questioning that they still believe the crazy literalisms despite the instructions of their neocon/GOP masters.  The only new thing is the political rise to power of neocons and their delusional belief that they can fundamentally change reality with expensive public relations campaigns and political spin.  The party is already more than half over for the neocons anyway, and when its thankfully finished there will be nothing left of ID other than just another chapter in the history of creationist delusion.  I'm frankly surprised that it gets as much discussion here as it has, though I suppose somebody has to tell the youngsters and remind those of short memory that the NeoCon job is really the same-old-con job.
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #6 on: 2005-10-27 00:34:02 »
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>>  2) ID will win because the pro-Darwin crowd is acting like a bunch of losers.

"Ewww…intelligent design people! They're just buck-toothed Bible-pushing nincompoops with community-college degrees who're trying to sell a gussied-up creationism to a cretinous public! No need to address their concerns or respond to their arguments. They are Not Science. They are poopy-heads."

There. I just saved you the trouble of reading 90% of the responses to the ID position.<<

LoL! He could of have saved us even more trouble by not bothering to give us a lengthy treatise on how old ideas are really new ideas.  He could have shortened it considerably by just saying "Intelligent Design will win because I believe the neocons will stay in power for a hundred years".  We can shorten it even further by simply saying "Might makes right".  What a waste.

« Last Edit: 2005-10-27 00:46:43 by Jake Sapiens » Report to moderator   Logged

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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #7 on: 2005-10-27 01:18:48 »
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>>I've said it before and I'll say it again: families that reproduce people tend to reproduce ideas, as well. The most vocal non-scientist proponents of ID are those delightfully fertile Catholics, Evangelicals, and similarly right-leaning middle-class college-educated folk -- the kind whose children will inherit the country. Eventually, the social right will have the sheer manpower to teach ID wherever they please.<<

This has always been the case for creationists ever since the "Origin of Species" in 1859, and yet evolution persists.  Obviously he seems to be missing the difference between genetics and memetics.

And again I point out that all of the "Intelligent Design" proponents I meet seem to be ignoring the neocon memos from on high that they cease believing in crazy biblical literalisms.  I live in Texas, one of the "reddest" states in the union, and my creationist acquaintences don't seem to be discarding their faith in the literal truth of the Bible even as they mouth the words "intelligent design".  As for the Catholics, they still don't believe me when I inform them that John Paul II accepted common decent and a billions of year old universe.  Obviously the footsoldiers who are supposed to be winning for Intelligent Design aren't getting their orders correct, and persist in framing things the same old way instead of the shiny new way.
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #8 on: 2005-10-27 01:53:30 »
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>>Despite what angry ID opponents may tell you, the advent of ID won't hurt American productivity a bit. Belief in ID does nothing to make believers less capable in science or engineering. No geek in the world will find his computer mojo diminished because of his opinions on irreducible complexity. To the contrary: ID might make biology and the natural sciences more appealing to believers who might otherwise find science to be too far removed from God's presence. As ID appeals to the conservative mindset without hurting anyone's skills, why wouldn't the social right embrace it?<<

If you read Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" and share his belief in irreducible complexity, then you won't see the point in understanding actual complexity theory and research.  And if you understand complexity theory and research (for example Stuart Kauffman's work outlined in "The Origins of Order") then you would realize that complexity is "irreducible" when Michael Behe doesn't understand it even as he numbs the reader's mind in voluminous biochemical jargon and details.  So yes, collectively there can and probably will be real negative consequences for widely held irrational beliefs.  If you put Michael Behe in charge of funding research in the US, he simply won't see the point and Americans lose out to other global competitors who will.

There can also be consequences in business and employment.  IRL I find that I generally don't tell people when I think they are an idiot unless I deem it necessary, but I can and do make economic decisions based on that.  I'm sure that happens on a global level as well, and most developed countries are much less religious than the US.  So if you are looking for business or employment in another developed country, you might want to keep your beliefs in "Intelligent Design Theory" to yourself.  Its one thing to have a few irrational beliefs, perhaps we all do to some degree or another, but its another thing to advertise how serious you are about them.  Unless you are the pope, or a minister, or some other full-time religioso, I'm guessing talking about Intelligent Design Theory still translates into "creationist nut" in other developed countries where right wing wackos don't control the media and politics.
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #9 on: 2005-10-27 03:55:58 »
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #10 on: 2005-10-27 04:33:48 »
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[Blunderov] It seems debatable that humouring ID in the interests of promoting scientific enquiry amongst the superstitious would be a harmless concession. IMO it would be downright contradictory and its fruit would be a generation of soothsayers-with-calculators.

ID is the old cosmological argument newly come to town as a sharp-dressed man. If ANY 'irreducibly complex' system must have been designed, then so too must the cosmos. Whatever its merits or lack thereof, this ancient argument has nothing to do with science. It is a philosophical question.

(Interesting though is the tell-tale tang of relativism that hangs in the air like cordite.)

Will ID win though? Very likely. Horoscopes are still published in most newspapers.

Abracadabra.
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #11 on: 2005-10-27 11:59:23 »
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Salamantis, at first glance, I too thought your post was in support of ID. After further reading, I concluded otherwise.

As far as ID winning, it has already won. It's proponents are in control of the White House and both houses of congress. However, their reign will come to an end. Not in 50 or a 100 years, but in the next 10 or sooner. You can see chinks in their armor growing daily. Their once unified message is fragmenting. Their arguements cannot stand up to the light of day. And the main reason they will fail to prevail against science is us. All the enlightened who understand the reality of evolution will continue to spread our message. Our message is grounded in reality while theres is based on fantasy. Not knowing the difference between truth and fiction, they are confused about right and wrong. They will continue to be indicted for criminal behavior because they are incapable of rational decisions. They have built a modern tower of babel which is incapable of supporting the weight of its own dogma.
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #12 on: 2005-10-31 13:39:53 »
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Quote from: Salamantis on 2005-10-27 03:55:58   

I still consider it surpassingly strange that neither this list nor the memetics list was willing to undertake such an analysis, but, after much thought, ascribed the reluctance of the memetics list to a justifiable fear which the British moderator might feel for his position and personal safety, and the reluctance here to an us-them complex among Bush, Republican (I am a registered Democrat), and/or United States haters on this list, leading them to, taking the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend parable to heart, look more kindly upon Islamofascists than they do fundy Xtians, regardless of the relative fundamentalist literalism, religious intolerance, fanatical zealotry and murder-for-faith coefficients presently obtaining between them, and be unwilling to subject both memesets to equally probing scrutiny.

Salamantis Joe implies that "Islamofascism" has received a sympathetic treatment on this list but I don't recall anything of the sort. Can anyone point to anything in the archives to support this accusation?

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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #13 on: 2005-10-31 14:13:39 »
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Just another of Joe's many paranoid accusations.  Just for the record, since Joe often sees me as part of his nebulous enemy "them" I view the Bush administration as part of the problem along with Islamofascist terrorists.  Indeed each relies on the other for their power, however the Islamofascists seem to currently have the better side of the equation.  By any objective measure of successful incidents of terror worldwide we are getting our asses kicked.  I'm sure anecdotal evidence will seem great, well framed, and persuasive, but that bottom line number is the most objective and hence the begining point of all conversations for reasonable people.  Hugs and kisses -Jake
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Re:Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
« Reply #14 on: 2005-10-31 14:39:40 »
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