From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Tue May 18 2004 - 09:13:41 MDT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
rhinoceros
Sent: 17 May 2004 16:26
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: virus: Re:Banality of Evil and Digital Photography
[Jonathan Davis 1 ]
The contempt shown world wide for these wrongdoers was coloured by a
familiar bigotry. Not only did these people commit these wrongs but worse,
they "hillbillies", "backwoodsmen" or "trailer trash". America's white rural
poor are the only group one can attack with impunity and let loose the full
broadside of bigotry and group hatred. Even the gentlemanly Boris Johnson
could not check himself.
Lynndie England is in many ways exemplary. Born to extreme poverty, she
worked and planned her way out of poverty. She could have been a perfect
American Dream candidate.
[rhinoceros 1]
Naomi Klein addressed this too. It is the Bush administration, not her, who
put all the blame on Lynndie England and those detained, the "deviant
monsters".
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=5530ty
<begin quote>
SNIP
The truth is that the poverty of the soldiers involved in prison torture
makes them neither more guilty, nor less. But the more we learn about them,
the clearer it becomes that the lack of good jobs and social equality in the
U.S. is precisely what brought them to Iraq in the first place. Despite his
attempts to use the economy to distract attention from Iraq, and his efforts
to isolate the soldiers as un-American deviants, these are the children
George Bush left behind, fleeing dead-end McJobs, abusive prisons,
unaffordable education, and closed factories.
[Jonathan 2] Klien paints a picture of a US where the Bush administration
has devastated the hinterland, driving these poor dumb beasts to take refuge
in the armed forces only to find themselves killed or arrested in Iraq.
This is specious.
The current economic climate is largely inherited from 15 years of US
political and fiscal policies. Also, until recently Bush was accused of
distracting attention from the Economy with Iraq? Now that the Economy is
growing again she charges him with the reverse!
Most of those soldiers are happy to be fighting for their country and they
are happy to enjoy the benefits that service brings them. The state of the
country - which is by any standard is rather good - cannot be blamed on this
Administration. As career soldiers go the bulk of US servicemen is pampered
and safe. I also think that military service is an excellent absorber of the
economically adrift sections of society. Incidentally, these people are set
adrift not by the relatively powerless Administrations but the enormously
powerful macro-economic forces shaping the global economy.
[rhinoceros-ctd 1]
<snip>
Klein's quote contd.
Donald Rumsfeld? "Doing a superb job," according to the optimist-in-chief.
The mission in Iraq? "We're making progress, you bet," Bush told reporters
one year after his disastrous "Mission Accomplished" speech. And the U.S.
job market, which has driven so many into poverty? "Yes, America Can!"
We don't yet know who taught these young soldiers how to effectively torture
their prisoners. But we do know who taught them how to stay happy go lucky
in the face of tremendous suffering --that lesson came straight from the
top.
<end quote>
[rhinoceros 1]
This final paragraph brings to mind the "Stanford prison experiment" which,
although criticised by many as not scientifically rigorous, gives us good
clues about how affirmation can easily make a torturer. There is also the
newer "BBC prison experiment" which brings up a caveat:
Why not everyone is a torturer
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3700209.stm)
That said, no psychological study can absolve an ordinary person from their
personal responsibility; society mainly cares for the effects on our daily
lives.
[Jonathan 2]
Indeed. Milgram's study was groundbreaking and I strongly recommend to you
"Opening Skinners Box" by Lauren Slater. I thoroughly enjoyed the book, but
there are some grumblings about it. See the Amazon review for more -
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747563179/ .
[Jonathan Davis 1]
Need she be imprisoned and heavily punished? I do not think that would be
just. Catch the people who might have murdered prisoners. Catch the people
who might have tortured them.
But the people who frightened and humiliated them - people like Lynndie
England - their wrongs in my mind and not even crimes. This is the reality
of war and interrogation. I suspect that England and company were directed
by Military Intelligence and that these interrogation methods were
successful.
[rhinoceros 1]
Personal responsibility is an integral part of our Western values, and these
deviations are illegal for a reason which already became apparent: They are
already being paid in blood.
I do not dispute your statement about personal responsibility, but I do not
see its application in this context. As for the illegality of the act - it
is illegal if it contravenes a law, simple as that. Another Western (legal)
value is "nulla poena sine lege": no punishment without a law.
That the publication of the photos is or will lead to an upsurge in killing
remains speculation. I believe the Insurgents are throwing everything they
can into the battle now because they believe they are close to a tipping
point. Nothing could make them hate more or try harder or kill any better
than they are already.
If mere fostering of bloodshed was the core of the wrongdoing - then surely
those publishing the photos are culpable for their part too? What of people
like Al Jazeera who are seconded only by the former Iraq Information
Minister in their hysterical confabulations falsehoods about non-existent
Coalition atrocities?
[Jonathan Davis 1]
I think we ought to stop the hypocritical finger pointing at these
miscreants and face up the messy task of fighting enemies that not only do
not share our values or restraint but actively use them against us.
It is time to adapt and that adaptation might mean that the gentlemanly
rules of engagement and prisoner care developed by and for civilised people
be not apply when facing enemies that scorn those rules.
[rhinoceros 1]
What "hypocritical finger pointing?" I thought those exactly were the values
that were supposed to be promoted. "Fighting enemies that don't share our
values?" Can you point out any specific values which the occupation troops
are currently offering for sharing? And after all, who decides who my enemy
is?
This is also a good place to point out that (a) Saddam has already been
capture and (b) Al-Sadr with his mahdi army used to be a sworn enemy of his
-- Saddam murdered his father. Now Al-Sadr is fighting against the
occupation troops and I don't see any civil war in Iraq. Why are the troops
there now? Why would I want to fight and defeat anyone in their home because
of a shady Lebanese serial killer who is trying to cash-in the anger of the
abused? -- and he may too.
[Jonathan 2] In the case of Islamists, it is they who have selected us -
you and I - as the enemy. You can consider them to be whatever you chose.
This is the problem with aggression. You do not get to chose to fight or
not. You fight or die.
The hypocritical finger pointing is aimed at we at home who are quick to
judge those soldiers and the "Arab Street" by which I mean the spectre
invoked when the press needs to reify Islam and Muslims. This is usually
represented by Arab hordes demanding death to westerners and the
annihilation of Israel or celebrating terrorist attacks or protesting about
the abuse of Iraqi prisoners whilst supporting the murderers of Nick Berg
and other civilians.
[Jonathan Davis 1]
An enemy whose Commander in Chief personally apologises for the wrongdoings
of a tiny number of renegade soldiers sets the upper standard. An enemy that
beheads captives, ransoms body parts or flies whole plane loads of its
prisoners into buildings, sets the opposite, lowest standard.
[rhinoceros 1]
So, they became renegade wrongdoers again? I thought you said they were
exemplary.
[Jonathan 2] Yes, I meant what I wrote at several levels. What I said was
"Lynndie England is in many ways exemplary". What that meant was that she
was "born to extreme poverty, she worked and planned her way out of [that]
poverty. She could have been a perfect American Dream candidate". She is
both "serving as an illustration of a type" and " serving to warn". She was
not some lazy arse thick hick but a hard working and determined
self-improver. Possibly one night of stupidity has ruined all that. She was
an exemplary vision of American self-determined improvement. Now she is an
exemplary wrongdoer.
[rhinoceros 1] And who is "the enemy" who beheads captives? Not the serial
killer I just mentioned?
[Jonathan 2] Who do you mean?
[Rhinoceros 1] Is "the enemy" a tentacle coming out of the Brown Blob
comprising the Middle East? This may sound snide, but remember that it is
neither Al-Zarqawi nor Saddam who is kept in Baghdad prison. It's Iraqis
with kin and neighbors who have not been accused of anything. You may want
to turn back and look for those western values again.
[Jonathan 2] The enemy in Iraq is mostly comprised of Syrian and Iranian
agitators, Al Qaeda operatives, Baathist remnants, Tribal Mafia, Shiite
power grabbers and a smattering of psychopathic Islamists drawn to a fight.
Those kept in that prison at that time could have been comprised of any of
those groups. Some if not most are innocent. They will be released in due
course. Most German POW were still being used as slave labour in 1946 the
last of them only saw freedom in 1948. Those men are casualties of war.
[rhinoceros 1]
All that said, I have talked with Jonathan in IRC several times and I have
noticed that he is actually a sweet and polite person, much unlike myself. I
would bet good money that if he was a guard in that Baghdad prison he would
stop dead on his tracks as soon as a prisoner talked back to him in human
speech. I expect that eventually he will integrate all the personal stories
which drive him into a coherent whole.
[Jonathan 2] The respect and hope is mutual. :-)
Kind regards
Jonathan
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