From: rhinoceros (rhinoceros@freemail.gr)
Date: Mon Apr 05 2004 - 18:58:23 MDT
[rhinoceros]
After giving a free lecture on economics and the European "stagnation" as opposed to the USA prosperity
[Kharin]
Hmm. What be the reason for the quote marks around stagnation? It doesn't seem an especially unreasonable description, given that Germany's economy grew at 0-0.2% in the fourth quarter of 2003, the French economy grew at 0.5%, while the US economy grew at 4.8% in the same period. Looking at figures for the third quarter of 2003, Holland grew by 0.1%, while Italy contracted by 0.1%.
[rhinoceros]
What is funny is that actually I had used more quotation marks intitially, which I deleted. The one pair I left had the effect which Kharin's all-seeing eye noticed. :P
Of course there has been stagnation and high unemployment in Europe in the last years. Many economists ascribe it to Europe's unwillingness to fully subscribe to the elusive concept of free market. (I call it elusive because free market does not really exist anywhere on this planet, probably because it would take huge amounts of state intervention to get those people running around crazily and forming joint ventures, trade unions, consumer unions, and other aggregations to fit the curves on the paper.) Another view is that USA's comparatively better growth record can be ascribed to their militant state-backed economic policy -- they stand firmly behind their big corporations, no matter if the corporations trade in Boeings or in bananas. This is something one can notice in Frist's press release.
[Kharin]
Well, I did note that those words were actually absent from Frist's speech, presumably because the US has been little better than Europe on that score. Steel and softwood tariffs spring to mind. If there had been a free market in this case, the EU would hardly have needed to take the action it did.
[rhinoceros]
Since what Frist is doing here is calling for American state intervention against European state intervention, there was not much room left for him to use the FM words. But it could be done! One of the paradoxes of the free market concept is that it is routinely being enforced by state intervention.
The patriotic tone of Frist's references to Microsoft and Innovation was (almost) amusing. I also noticed the (pinko?) reference to American workers. Should we suppose that Microsoft does not do outshoring?
[simul]
The term “free market” is politispeak for “a market which favors established players”
[Jonathan Davis]
No so fast Erik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market
[simul]
So, some group of Internet idealists defines a term... Do you really think that's how it's used?
Hell no.
Currently “free trade” means deregulating tarriffs for corporations, while retaining import taxes for individuals.
<snip>
Free trade is the biggest buzzword bullshit ever served up to the mouths of the citizens of this world.
Anyone who thinks it's real is either uninformed, an idiot, or a self-serving mouthpiece or member of the ruling class.
[rhinoceros]
Erik, I often happen to agree with some of the things you say but at the same time I often flinch. Here are some thought, not exclusively addressed at you.
First, it is useful to keep in mind that the people who read what you write have very different outlooks of the world, different premises and different analytical tools. Some of them have arrived there after some study, thought and experience, and their mental coherence system tells them that their outlook is good enough. So, you (everyone) cannot get your point through by typing an one-line assertion, because that will only be understood by the ones who already share it to some degree. This is hardly productive.
It is true that you did elaborate a bit in your last post, but again, for example, even an insult will fall through if it is based on the concepts of class society and the ruling class, not to speak of the uninformed whom you didn't inform, the idiots on whom you gave up, and the self-serving mouthpieces at whom you just snickered. This is unproductive as well. (By the way, I do understand the concepts of class society, ruling class and the dominant ruling class ideology, but this is irrelevant.)
Second, I suggest you (everyone) take one more look at the Wikipedia entry on free market which Jonathan (with whom I almost always disagree) pointed out. Some of the Internet idealists who write those things in Wikipedia are university teachers. You will find that this particular entry is ballanced enough to allow for arguments against the viability of the concept of free market in an informed and technically valid ways. Your (everyone's) arguments will earn more respect if you can display some more or less solid knowledge of the jubject.
That said, politicians are not necessarily concerned with the pros, the cons, and the limitations of the concept of free market -- probably many of them have a very vague idea of what it is. They can always apply some of its terminology selectively either as an economic tool or as a propaganda tool.
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