From: Mermaid (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 15:30:32 MDT
Perhaps it may be helpful to focus on one paragraph of "The Disciplinary Process"
[2] Membership
[2.1] A person does not become a member of a community simply by asserting that they are such a member, but also by the community accepting the membership of that person. In the absence of more particular rules, the only way to determine who is a member of the community is a statement of affiliation by a putative member and the acceptance of this assertion by the community, in otherwords, a community of the willing.
[Mermaid]Why do you keep quoting from the disciplinary process when it is the very process that I am questioning?
[Hermit]I suggest that this paragraph is a key to understanding what the entire "non-punishment" oriented regime we have instituted is about.
[Mermaid]Errr..I *dont* want to understand the 'non punishment' regime..personally, i think its a misnomer...you cant threaten us with 'conform...or else...............' and then call it non-punishment.
[Mermaid]Once again..whatever it may be..I want to know WHAT the church is going to do for me. What do I gain from membership to CoV? Can I get a simple answer for this?
[Hermit]Please consider for a moment that nobody has a "right" to be a member of a church or other such "community of the willing."
[Mermaid]Rights cannot exist without duties. Can duties exist without rights?
[Hermit]Not only does an outsider have a choice as to whether or not they wish to join with a community, but the community has the choice as to whether or not to accept that person as a member of the community.
[Mermaid]We have the Meridion for this purpose. I dont see the point of the disciplinary process. The advantage of the Meridion over the DiP is that members figure it out for themselves how they should behave. They can see how their bad behaviour and good behaviour affects them. Being that the Meridion is not perfect yet, maybe more energy should be invested in refining the Meridion(considering that it already has 50 members) and fixing its glitches instead promoting DiP.
[Hermit]From this it follows, that when the community withdraws it's assent from a member, temporarily or permanently, this is not in any way an infringement of the member in question's "rights", unless a "right" to be a member of the community exists.
[Mermaid]Eh?
[Hermit]However, as we have seen, no "right" to be a member does exist.
[Mermaid]I think its very clear that nobody has the 'right' to be a member of the community, but when a person has already signed up...especially so with the rep system...the member *does* have rights. Except in cases of extreme bad behaviour when the sheriff steps in, there is no need to discipline the member.
[Mermaid]But since you bought it up...I really want to know....with all this 'desired and expected behaviour', since DiP implies that there is a great pressure on the member to conform...where is the pressure on CoV to deliver more than a chat room and a bbs forum to its members. I absolutely believe that there is more that CoV can offer. It can offer purpose, goals, a means to combine all our strengths and ideas to create something better...*if* we get our heads together...*if* we discuss it....lets have a chat about that first. Then we can hold a chat about DiP.
[Hermit]So when our community acts to protect itself, its members and good order, by withdrawing its countenance, facilities or acceptance from a member, the community is not "punishing" the member, it is simply disassociating itself from the behaviour, and in extreme cases, the person that the community perceives as not being in unity with it.
[Mermaid]I hear. We already has the sheriff doing that job. It is unlikely that an unpleasant specimen will emerge again in CoV. Examples have been made from previous unpleasantness. Everyone knows the consequences. If people insist on bad behaviour, I think its pretty telling and quite suicidal.
[Mermaid]Cant you see? You are telling people why CoV wont want them..why they will be rejected...how they should behave..instead of telling them how they are unique..how they can be useful and how they can get better and make others better....Its like telling a child that you'd spank him if he doesnt get good grades..instead of telling the child that you'd reward him if he gets good grades. I vote for not spanking and collective rewards. If you think spanking will work more than reward, then maybe we should have a chat about *that* instead. Anything but how and why you will administer the spanking.
[Mermaid]CoV members are not children. We are mature and on most days, rational adults. We can see reason. We can weigh the consequences of our actions. We have vision. We can create a better world. I'd bet most of us dont want to conform. Its probably precisely because we didnt want to conform that we sought out a place like CoV. Demanding that we conform to any kind of 'desired and acceptable behaviour' is an insult to our intelligence. Regardless of the language...I protest. We know who they are....the silly ones..the childish ones..the not so serious ones..the malicious ones...the wonderful thing is we are diverse..and we need them all..the mean, the nasty, the kind, the hasty, the wise, the funny....its not our behaviour that brought us together..it was our beliefs...
[Mermaid]What we CANNOT ignore is the fact that we have no common goals. We are united but we dont know why we are together or what we are going to do with our combined strengths. I really think we need to talk about that. It is a lot more urgent than DiP. If you would use your energy in figuring that out and working with people like me(and many others like me) who are interested in finding a way to make good of the strength in our current numbers instead of investing time and energy in DiP, I am sure a lot of people will appreciate it. Think about it.
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