From: Jonathan Davis (jonathan.davis@lineone.net)
Date: Fri Sep 26 2003 - 05:07:41 MDT
Dear Hermit,
You, like Kharin, have stooped to defamation over content. Scruton is a
first and foremost an philosopher, and a superb one at that. I can testify
to this as I have read the book in question.
Why you inserted the irrelevant comments about race consciousness I do not
know. Redefining the out-group is easy when I can force you into the
in-group at spear point.
As a scientist, sceptic and atheist perhaps you would be better advised
expounding on Toynbee's "use of myths and metaphors as being of comparable
value to factual data and his reliance on a view of religion as a
regenerative force" [http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=406334 ].
Or is your selective quoting of Toynbee just a case of a quoting another set
of scriptures for one's own purposes?
I find it delightfully ironic that you approving quote Toynbee's reference
to Islamic universalism -namely the surrendered are all equal before Allah
(hence no need for other classifications like race or nation), yet for
Toynbee "the West's universalist pretensions" are disgusting.
I am alarmed that how you are so forgiving and even admiring of our
deadliest and fastest growing competitor - Islam. Do you really mean to side
with this militant religion against our secular, Western model of politics?
Your words remind me of something Orwell wrote:
"why is it that the worst extremes of jingoism and racialism have to be
tolerated when they come from an Irishman? Why is a statement like "My
country right or wrong" reprehensible if applied to England and worthy of
respect if applied to Ireland (or for that matter to India)? For there is no
doubt that some such convention exists and that "enlightened" opinion in
England can swallow even the most blatant nationalism so long as it is not
British nationalism. Poems like "Rule, Britannia!" or "Ye Mariners of
England" would be taken seriously if one inserted at the right places the
name of some foreign country, as one can see by the respect accorded to
various French and Russian war poets to-day."
George Orwell's review of Drums under the Windows by Sean O'Casey [ The
Observer, 28 October 1945]
http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/orwell_ocasey.htm
For any neutral readers, I recommend an interesting look at Toynbee here:
http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/19/mar01/notes.htm .
As for you Hermit, oppugnancy is damaging you. Perhaps "surrender" is what
you really need?
Regards
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf Of
Hermit
Sent: 25 September 2003 21:25
To: virus@lucifer.com
Subject: Re:virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
As Kharin observes, Scruton is an apologist, not an historian. Again, I
recommend Arnold Toynbee's "A Study of History" et al to Jonathan Davis'
attention, with a reminder, "The extinction of race consciousness as between
Muslims is one of the outstanding achievements of Islam and in the
contemporary world there is, as it happens, a crying need for the
propagation of this Islamic virtue..." [Arnold J. Toynbee, Civilization on
Trial, New York, ISBN: 1112761721, p. 205]
The US is currently learning what the "happy Empire builders" once learned
and have now apparently forgotten, that "Sword-blades are foundations that
never settle" [Arnold J. Toynbee, A Study of History, OUP, 1939, vol. 6 ,p.
196.]
Hermit
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