From: Jake Sapiens (every1hz@earthlink.net)
Date: Thu Sep 25 2003 - 11:17:11 MDT
Hello Jonathan,
Gee, don't you remember Bush and Rumsfeld repeatedly threatening to "go it
alone", and threatening the UN with irrelevancy if they didn't rubberstamp
Bush's war? How have you failed to notice these and other "my way or the
highway" bullying postures that this administration used as its so-called
diplomacy? Other than the UK which was on our side from the begriming (and
hence doesn't really count as a diplomatic victory), this administration
completely failed to get any other major military power involved in its
Iraq expedition. The fact that a short list of relatively minor and weak
international powers joined the militarily strongest nation in the world in
order to provide some international window-dressing does not count as any.
These other countries aren't remotely our equals in terms of power, so I
don't think that this qualifies as bi-lateral in any sense of the word. A
unilateralist doesn't negotiate with equals. When the unilateralist says
"my way or the highway", it doesn't suddenly get turned into bilateral
diplomacy just because some weaker parties knuckle under and say "okay I
will take your way." The actual military contribution by these other
countries is negligible compared to US and UK. They are effectively window
dressing. This is a primarily US/UK action. I know you and Donald
Rumsfeld keep claiming it has some significantly international character,
but any reasonable observer can recognize the disingenuous nature of this
propaganda used to gloss over the diplomatic failures of this
administration. Their consistent childish bullying unilateralist attitude
remains obvious to reasonable people not committed to their extreme
religious-wrong/Christian-crusader ideology.
-Jake
> [Original Message]
> From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> Date: 09/25/2003 2:14:04 AM
> Subject: RE: Unilateralism (was: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1)
>
> Hi Jake,
>
> You say "I would agree that the USA has had a tradition of choosing
> diplomacy and consensus, but the current administration has shown a very
> clear preference for unilateral action over diplomacy and consensus.
Indeed
> often not just a preference, but the sole "strategy""
>
> This is simply false. This administration has always acted with a
coalition
> of partners and allies including the United Kingdom. Can you cite an
> examples of this administration acting unilaterally? Also, can you explain
> why this Cold War concept of bi- and unilateralism is being used where it
is
> nearly meaningless in this context?
>
> You see unilateralism, I see a coalition of 49 countries. Perhaps it is
you
> who needs to have his ideo-memetic health checked as "rather obvious
public
> facts" appear to directly contradict your counterclaims.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On Behalf
Of
> Jake Sapiens
> Sent: 24 September 2003 20:30
> To: virus
> Subject: Unilateralism (was: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1)
>
> Okay, I am still in the process of digesting the E-Zine, so I haven't read
> Hermit's piece yet, (but I will soon), but I can't let Jonathan's
assertion
> below just slide by. I would agree that the USA has had a tradition of
> choosing diplomacy and consensus, but the current administration has
shown a
> very clear preference for unilateral action over diplomacy and consensus.
> . Indeed other modes of conducting foreign policy seem almost missing
from
> this administrations repertoire. (Colin Powell not withstanding since they
> seem to more or less ignore him making his diplomacy ineffective before he
> starts). I can't imagine what (other than perhaps an ideological/memetic
> infection) would lead Jonathan to not notice these rather obvious public
> facts.
>
> -Jake
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jonathan Davis <jonathan.davis@lineone.net>
> > To: <virus@lucifer.com>
> > Date: 09/15/2003 2:02:23 AM
> > Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
> >
> > You say the USA holds the community of nations in manifest contempt,
> > yet
> I
> > see no such contempt. I see the USA, despite its overwhelming power,
> > choosing diplomacy and consensus. The USA has withdrawn from some
> treaties,
> > but it was perfectly fair for them to do so. If an agreement
> > disadvantages you, you are entitled to void the agreement and
renegotiate.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com] On
> > Behalf
> Of
> > Blunderov
> > Sent: 15 September 2003 08:45
> > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan Davis
> > > Sent: 14 September 2003 1840
> > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > Subject: RE: virus: The Ideohazard 1.1
> > >
> > > I was spooked by Hermit's Chinese-commit-genocide piece but for me
> > > it
> > was
> > > ruined by its overt anti-Americanism (if that term can be applied to
> > what
> > > appears *in my opinion* to be Hermit's pathological hatred of
> > America).
> >
> >
> > [Bl.] Whether Hermit has a hatred of America, and whether, if so, this
> > hatred is pathological or not, I cannot say. What I can say is that it
> > is equally possible, based on the evidence before us, that he is a
> > fervent patriot. It depends on your point of view.
> >
> > When the British invaded China in the 18th Century they found maps in
> which
> > China occupied the almost whole of the document; peeping in at the
> > corners of these maps were tiny representations of what were
> > characterized as 'Barbarian' nations - Britain, France and the USA. It
> > was clear that the Chinese world view allocated no importance to
anything
> other than China.
> >
> > Ironically, if one reads the Hermits list of broken American promises
> > and treaties, it is difficult to conclude that the American world-view
> > is any less solipsistic than the Chinese maps of yore.
> >
> > It is almost risible that such a self-avowedly 'democratic' nation
> > should hold the community of nations in such manifest contempt. Almost.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards
> > Blunderov
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> > <http://www.lucifer.com/cgi-bin/virus-l>
> >
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>
>
> --- Jake Sapiens
> --- every1hz@earthlink.net
> --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
>
>
> ---
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--- Jake Sapiens
--- every1hz@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.
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