From: Hermit (hidden@lucifer.com)
Date: Mon Jun 23 2003 - 16:54:32 MDT
[Kharin 1]
[Hermit 2]
[Walter Watts 3]
[Kharin 4]
[Lucifer 5]
[Hermit 6]
[hr]
[Hermit 2] Just as many people who are not pugalists (boxers), don't identify themselves as "not-boxers", few atheists identify themselves as "not-theists". It simply isn't important enough to "not-boxers" or indeed atheists for this to form part of their definition of themselves. This means that quite understandably, for most atheists, the attribute is not important to them unless it is challenged, and even then, as Dawkins observes, they might label themselves with something less socially frowned upon.
[Lucifer 5] I bet if 90% of the world's population were boxers the rest would be inclined to label themselves (and be labelled by others) as non-boxers. Your analogy doesn't hold.
[Hermit 6] But are 90% of the world's population theists? I don't know where you get your data from, some sources would be good, as mine reflect a very different situation. Religion is not all that vitally important to most of the world. http://www.gallup-international.com/survey18.htm The Gallup International Millennium Survey ainterviewed 57,000 adults in 60 different countries of the world between August and October, 1999, representing 1.25 billion of the planet's inhabitants. The survey covered a wide range of topics of an ethical, political and religious nature, focusing specifically on issues close to people's emocracy, the United Nations, Human Rights, Women's Rights, the Environment, Religion Crimbasic values, particularly those which will have an impact on the new Millennium. Issues such as De, and "What Matters Most in Life" were included.... The most popular answers to what matters least (in a forced choice question) are almost as consensual globally as we saw in the high ranking of family and hea
lth. If we do have to choose something that matters less, we choose to give up on being faithful to my religion and to have a good standard of living. The population in 48 of the 60 countries mention being faithful to my religion as one of the two least important things in life.
[Hermit 6] Yet if we take religion as being important, according to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html (and noting that, "The adherent counts presented in the list above are estimates of the number of people who have at least a minimal level of self-identification as adherents of the religion. Levels of participation vary within all groups. These numbers tend toward the high end of reasonable worldwide estimates.") there are approximately:# Christianity: 2 billion
# Islam: 1.3 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
# Buddhism: 360 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
# primal-indigenous: 150 million
# African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
# Sikhism: 23 million
# Juche: 19 million
# Spiritism: 14 million
# Judaism: 14 million
# Baha'i: 6 million
# Jainism: 4 million
# Shinto: 4 million
# Cao Dai: 3 million
# Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
# Neo-Paganism: 1 million
# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
# Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
# Scientology: 600 thousand
# Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand[Hermit 6] It should be noted that this indicates that "Christianity" makes up about 1/3 of the world population. A far cry from 90%. Yet even this is a mischaracterization. According to http://www.ywam.org/books/wce.htm there are 33,800 Christian denominations, and if we examine just the major divisions, we find http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html:Catholic 1,050,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
Anglican 73,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Latter Day Saints 11,500,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000
New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
Mennonite 1,250,000
Friends (Quakers) 300,000[Hermit 6] Where we see that the major group, the Catholics, makes up only around 1/6 of the world population (and even within that group there are a vast number of mutually disagreeing divisions).
[Hermit 6] So, speaking globally, 90% appears to be an imaginary figment. Particularly when we recognize that atheists make up a very significant number in relation to any deaggregated grouping.
[Hermit 6] Looking specifically at the United States, and drawing from http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/aris_index.htm (ARIS: The largest, most comprehensive surveys on religious identification were done in sociologists Barry A. Kosmin, Seymour P. Lachman and associates at the Graduate School of the City University of New York. Their first major study was done in 1990: the National Survey of Religious Identification (NSRI). This scientific nationwide survey of 113,000 Americans asked about religious preference, along with other questions. They followed this up, with even more sophisticated methodology and more questions, with the American Religious Identity Survey (ARIS) conducted in 2001, with a sample size of 50,000 Americans.) At http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/key_findings.htm they reflect that in 1990, 14.331, 000 (or 8.2% of the US population) identified itself as "no religion specified" (includes atheist, agnostic, humanist, secular and no religion). By 2001, this had risen to 29,481,000 or 14.1% of the
US population and forming a larger group than any Christian denomination with the exception of Catholics and Baptists, and only slightly smaller than the Baptists (at 34 million or 16.3% of the population).
[Hermit 6] Here are the actual data:
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/attachments/US_Religions_image001.gif
[Hermit 6] So even if we look just at the US, and even if we pretend that the "over 100" identified religious groupings in the US are all Christian, which is of course not true, then 90% is still a reach. In fact, the same page reports that self-identified "Christians" of all denominations, by 2001 made up only 76.5% of the US population (down from 86.2% in 1990).
[Hermit 6] Pictures being worth a million words, here it is reflected graphically:
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/attachments/religious_secular_ex_3.gif
[Hermit 6] Even more interesting is that this is a growing trend, as seen when examining the above by age group:
http://virus.lucifer.com/bbs/attachments/religious_secular_by_age_ex_3.gif.
[Hermit 6] An additional factor, not taken into account here, is that people lie about their degree of religious affiliation and church affiliation. Refer http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/church1.htm where they say, "That figure may well be inflated, though, suggests new research, including a study reported recently in the Washington Post. Conducted by sociologist Stanley Presser of the University of Maryland and research assistant Linda Stinson of the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, it indicates that a more accurate assessment of church attendance data shows only 26% of Americans regularly attending church -- a drop from the 42% reported in 1965." This data suggests that the number of "non-religious" may well be even higher than reported, particularly when we examine how organizations such as Barna classify the non-religious.
[hr]
<Hermit: Order swapped>
[Hermit 2] This social pressure goes a long way to explaining why atheists, even while vastly outnumbering homosexuals, have remained lurking in their closets while homosexuals have emerged from theirs.
[Lucifer 5] Where do you get the idea that atheists vastly outnumber homosexuals?
[Hermit 6] Well, as we have seen above, atheists (those having no belief in gods and thus encompassing the "no religion" groups) make up 29,481,000 or 14.1% of the US population. Meanwhile, self identified Gay/Lesbians in the US comprised 4,960,000 (1.8% of the population) (Sources: Quoting http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html Which cites: Schmidt, Thomas E. Straight & Narrow: Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press (1995), pg. 102-103. [Original sources: P. Painton, "The Shrinking Ten Percent, " Time, April 26, 1993, pp. 27-29; P. Rogers, "How Many Gays Are There? " Newsweek, February 15, 1993, pg. 46; A.C. Kinsey, W.B. Pomeroy & C.E. Martin, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (Philadelphia: W. B. Saunders, 1948); J. H. Court & J. G. Muir, eds., Kinsey, Sex and Fraud: The Indoctrination of a People (Lafayette, La.: Huntington House, 1990); T. W. Smith, "Adult Sexual Behavior in 1989: Number of Partners, Frequency of Intercourse and Risk of AIDS, " Plann
ing Perspectives 23 (May/June 1991): 102-7. See p. 104, table 2. Smith is director of the General Social Survey Project at the NORC (University of Chicago).]) It seems to me that 29.5 million is 24.5 million more than 5 million, so I conclude my initial statement was correct.
[Hermit 6] Refer also http://www.atheists.org/comingout/othercloset.html
[hr]
[Lucifer 5] Where do you get the idea that atheists are discriminated against more than homosexuals? Are there laws preventing atheists from getting married? Are there laws preventing atheists from adopting children? Do atheists get beat up on the street for being atheists? What planet are you from?
[Hermit 6] Refer e.g. http://www.religioustolerance.org/amer_intol.htm
[Hermit 6] In 1995, of all Americans (85% or so Christian) only 13% saw atheism favorably. Of the "born again" 92% saw the impact of atheism as unfavorable, while even amongst the "unchurched", 50% saw atheism as having a negative impact. The Barna research reflected that 92% of respondents would not vote for an atheist.
[Hermit 6] A similar poll, run by Gallup in 1999, asked, "If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be a 'X' would you vote for that person?" where ""X" is Atheist, Baptist, Black, Catholic, Homosexual, Jewish, Mormon, and Woman. The number of unbiased votes (i.e. would vote for an "X") as a percentage was (ordered from most to least discriminated against):Atheist 49%
Homosexual 59%
Woman 92% | Jewish 92%
Baptist 94% | Catholic 94%
Black 95%
Mormon 99%[Hermit 6] This indicates that homosexuals are 10% less likely to be discriminated against than atheists, despite there being many more atheists than homosexuals. This is further substantiated by the following comments from the Summary [supra]:Prejudice against homosexuals has dropped significantly in the past two decades.
Prejudice against Atheists has dropped slightly, but remains very high.[Hermit 6] For more "joy" refer e.g. http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens.shtml
[Hermit 6] Discrimination need not be legislated, and I have unrelated disagreements with your choice of examples e.g. which is worse, for some small percentage of homosexuals to be violently assaulted for their orientation, or for millions of atheists to have to put up with a continuous bombardment of religious propaganda, some of it funded by their taxes? I don't know how one would quantify such invidious options in order to compare them, so I won't deal with them here unless you can propose an appropriate methodology.
[Hermit 6] And yes, I am from Earth. Tell me, have you stopped beating up women without an invitation yet?
[hr]
[Hermit 2] Even though blatantly fallacious, an underlying premis held by most Americans is that "Morals come from God", which means that atheists are regarded as immoral, untrustworthy and dangerous (and given that atheists insist upon thinking out their own ethics, the last may not be particularly incorrect).
[Lucifer 5] Atheists insist on thinking out their own ethics? And that makes them dangerous? I don't agree with either assertion.
[Hermit 6] Notice that I was speaking to ethics (which are, by definition, considered) as opposed to "morality" which is always inherited. As atheists cannot claim that ethics were handed out by gods, this means that, in so far as they consider ethics, they have to "think them out for themselves". A thinking position is always dangerous to an unthinking position is it not.
[Hermit 6] However, I would appreciate it if you would expand on your reasons for disagreeing, such that I can evaluate them more fully.
[hr]
[Hermit 6] For those interested, this response is an example of replying to a challenge to "facts", wherein I defend my initial assertions which presented "facts" based on previous articles posted to the CoV.
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