From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon Sep 16 2002 - 00:01:56 MDT
Since Hermit made such an unreasonable stink about this article, I 
decided to post it in its entirety and let the listmembers read it and judge 
for themselves.
http://www.meforum.org/article/175/
Has Israel Used Indiscriminate Force?
by Alexander A. Weinreb and Avi Weinreb
Since the outbreak of the current violence, Israeli military tactics 
have been the subject of much criticism. Israel, it is claimed, 
engages in the "unnecessary use of lethal force,"1 including 
(American-made) warplanes and helicopter gunships, "even 
against packed refugee camps."2 Its actions, jointly with those of 
the Palestinian Authority (PA), are said to signal a "descent into 
uncontrolled savagery."3
This depiction of Israeli military tactics, in particular the 
equivalence drawn between Israeli and Palestinian tactics, in turn 
provides cover for the embrace of revisionist interpretations of 
current Israeli security policy. Thus, insofar as Israel's current goal 
is allegedly "to dominate, expel, starve, and humiliate an entire 
people,"4 current Israeli policy does one of two things: it 
systematically targets noncombatants in an effort to terrorize the 
Palestinians into submission; or, in a scarcely less egregious 
version, it makes an insufficient effort to avoid the systematic and 
indiscriminate targeting of noncombatants. In either case, the 
results, it is claimed, are the same: the killing of "huge numbers of 
children, women, and elderly."5
Is this true? What does an analysis of mortality data show? It 
shows that the allegedly huge numbers of noncombatant casualties 
are in fact fictional. Israeli military strikes, it turns out, have been 
remarkably discriminate, in marked contrast to those of 
Palestinians.
The Case against Israel
Two types of evidence have been used to indict Israel. The first 
refers to specific deaths and instances of human rights abuse. This 
is the case-study approach to analysis. It draws its strength from 
highly charged descriptive or visual anecdotes, which are both 
easy grist for journalistic mills and also highly effective public 
relations tools. The televised death of 11-year-old Muhammad ad-
Dura, caught with his father in the crossfire of a sudden gun battle 
in the early stages of the violence, is a prime example of the 
power of this approach. Highly emotive, it was a catalyst for 
demonstrations throughout the Arab world. More general visual 
stimuli of this sort include footage of Israeli tanks arrayed against 
Palestinian stone-throwers, lines of Palestinian cars at Israeli 
checkpoints, etc. These purport to give an accurate flavor of life 
under occupation. Finally, this category also includes reports by 
human rights groups that profess to have identified several cases 
in which the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) have used excessive 
force.6
The second piece of evidence is the total number of deaths in the 
conflict. The recitation of simple aggregates - x Palestinians and y 
Israelis have died - is now a formulaic part of media coverage of 
this conflict. Thus far, roughly three times as many Palestinians 
have died as Israelis. This implicitly provides a basis for 
extrapolating from the case studies noted above, suggesting that 
more Palestinian deaths are directly equivalent to more 
Palestinian noncombatant deaths.
Damning Deficiencies
While rhetorically potent, these arguments are not in the least 
sufficient to establish that Israel systematically and 
indiscriminately targets noncombatants. Making that leap on the 
basis of these arguments disregards the most basic inferential 
rules in social science.
The key problem with the case-study approach is that it provides 
no reliable basis for generalization, which in turn means that it is 
unclear how accurately either selected poster children or alleged 
instances of human rights abuse summarize the parameters of the 
conflict. On what basis can or should one generalize from the 
(contested) case of Muhammad ad-Dura? (Especially since some 
evidence suggests he was killed by Palestinian fire.) Or from tanks 
parked outside a Palestinian town? Or from the alleged human 
rights abuses, whose easy investigation (and concentrated 
journalistic coverage) is a direct product of Israeli democratic 
freedoms? A single taste, to carry the metaphor a little further, 
may not represent the overall flavor.
But it does drive the battle over image. In typical Palestinian 
accounts, the "Israeli war machine" has perpetrated "all forms of 
atrocities" against the Palestinian people, including the 
indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas, the shooting of civilians, 
the assassination of legitimate political or resistance leaders, and 
the mining of routes followed by school children. These are the 
tactics allegedly responsible for the supposedly huge numbers of 
children, women, and elderly casualties.
Typical Israeli accounts are, of course, very different. Its attacks 
on Palestinian Authority (PA) targets, Israel asserts, have been 
measured, proportionate, solely in self-defense and have made 
every reasonable effort to limit casualties among noncombatants.
In fact, the only way to verify any of these claims is to explore the 
distribution of all deaths across age groups and sex (i.e., what 
demographers refer to as a disaggregation of mortality). It is a 
simple analytic approach that, in this case, allows for the 
identification of sectors of the population that are indisputably 
noncombatant.
The Mortality Data
We have compiled lists of all Israeli and Palestinian deaths caused 
directly by violence in the 16 months between September 29, 
2000, and January 31, 2002, from several sources. The variation 
in total number killed between the various lists is primarily caused 
by different editorial strategies with respect to who should be 
included in the list. Associated Press's list, for example, includes 
suicide bombers and alleged Palestinian collaborators with Israel 
who were killed by Palestinians, while Reuters figures do not.7 
With the exception of the Israeli government, however, the only 
source that contains anything other than a simple aggregate (that 
is, any descriptive data about each casualty) is B'Tselem, the 
Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied 
Territories.
As its subtitle suggests, B'Tselem is primarily concerned with 
violations of rights in the West Bank and Gaza (henceforth 
referred to as the territories). Since the beginning of the current 
round of violence in September 2000, it has noted deaths of all 
Palestinians and Israelis killed both in the territories and inside 
the Green Line, that is, within Israel's pre-1967 international 
borders. (It also has data on all Palestinian deaths going back to 
1993.) The database is updated monthly.
Database information about each of the deceased includes name, 
age, place of death/event, and cause of death (e.g., killed by 
gunshot, explosion, missile, knife, etc.). Gender is not explicitly 
given in the English version of the site but is easily inferred from 
the parallel Hebrew site since each entry is descriptive rather than 
numeric, and Hebrew differentiates between gender, thus allowing 
us to identify gender through linguistic form, cross-checking it 
with the apparent gender of the name (Hebrew and Arabic names, 
other than nicknames, also differentiate clearly between gender).
B'Tselem's data on Israeli deaths correspond to data made 
available by the Israeli foreign ministry, so we assume that they 
are fully accurate.8 The Palestinian data may be slightly less so, 
but we assume that any inaccuracies are too marginal to affect our 
estimates.9This assumption is based on three things. First, the 
wide media coverage of events within the Green Line and in the 
territories means that it is unlikely that any deaths go unreported, 
making it relatively easy for B'Tselem to collect these data. 
Second, B'Tselem claims to expend considerable effort in 
verifying each of those deaths through the careful cross-checking 
of its own agents' fieldwork with relevant documents, official 
government sources, and information from other sources, among 
them Israeli, Palestinian, and other human rights organizations.10
Finally, B'Tselem's self-referential claims are essentially 
trustworthy because B'Tselem cares about its international 
reputation. It is a past winner of the Carter-Menil Award for 
Human Rights and has received financial support from numerous 
foreign governments and international non-governmental 
organizations (NGOs). Its reports have frequently been cited by 
other leading international human rights organizations, such as 
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and Derechos. 
Similarly, both its publications and data are also referred to in 
official Palestinian Authority reports and in reports by Palestinian 
NGOs such as the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human 
Rights and the Environment (PSPHRE) and the Palestinian 
Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG).11 In short, if there 
are any errors in the B'Tselem data on Palestinian mortality, they 
are more likely to overestimate than underestimate the number of 
deaths.
Late Spring 2002, marked by waves of Palestinian suicide attacks 
and a subsequent Israeli offensive, saw heightened mortality on 
both sides. Although B'Tselem data are not yet available for the 
whole of this period, currently available data through the end of 
March show almost identical age- and sex-specific patterns as 
presented below in relation to the first 16 months. These data are 
available from the authors.
The coming months will reveal whether or not these patterns were 
maintained throughout the Israeli offensive. If the Jenin 
experience is indicative - Human Rights Watch declared that no 
massacre or systematic killing of Palestinian civilians by Israeli 
forces occurred during heavy house-to-house fighting, 
notwithstanding Palestinian claims and heavy international 
criticism of Israel - then it can reasonably be assumed that the 
pattern is more or less fixed.
Definitions
We use 12 of the 15 categories used by B'Tselem, all of which 
refer to deaths of Israeli and Palestinian civilians, soldiers, and 
other security or paramilitary forces in the 16-month period 
ending January 31, 2002. All three of the 15 B'Tselem categories 
that are not used refer to deaths of foreigners, that is, 12 
individuals not normally resident in Israel or the PA, four of 
whom were killed by Israeli security forces, three by Palestinian 
civilians in the territories, and the remaining four by Palestinian 
civilians within the Green Line. The data also do not include: 
*   47 suicide bombers who died in the 16-month period, 
    since these people cannot reasonably be considered 
    victims of the violence;12 
*   29 Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel, all 
    of whom are male; 
*   13 Palestinian citizens of Israel, all of whom are male;13 
*   22 Palestinians (11 of whom are female) who, it has been 
    claimed, have died from medical complications after too 
    long a delay at Israeli checkpoints (though we include 
    these in some tangential estimations in order to show that 
    their exclusion does not substantively change any of the 
    estimates); 
*   An unspecified number of Israelis killed in the increased 
    number of road-traffic accidents. The number of fatal road 
    accidents in Israel increased 14 percent between 1999 and 
    2001, leading to 61 more deaths.14This increase is 
    considered to be a direct product of the violence, since 
    repeated ambushes of Israeli civilian drivers have both 
    increased the speed at which people drive and led to a 
    reduced police enforcement of speed restrictions in certain 
    areas.
Our key differentiation is between Israelis and Palestinians, which 
we broadly refer to as nationality. Israeli includes Jews, as well as 
Arabs and Druze killed while serving in the Israeli armed forces.
Identifying Noncombatants
As implied above, the key analytic aim is to explore mortality 
among groups who, we can reasonably be assured, are 
noncombatants. Ideally, we would adopt B'Tselem's own 
categories since their lists claim to differentiate between deaths of 
civilians and security forces. Unfortunately, B'Tselem's definitions 
of each of these two are dangerously misleading.
The key problem is that they largely disregard the nature of the 
conflict and the context of given attacks. The sole determinant of 
a person's civilian status in the B'Tselem lists is whether they 
belong to a uniformed military or paramilitary group that 
officially represents either Israel or the PA. However reasonable 
this may sound in the abstract (presumably it is intended to 
establish unambiguous criteria), it ignores a fundamental 
difference between Israeli and Palestinian civilian categories. In 
fact, there are thousands of non-uniformed Palestinian combatants 
who are not members of the official PA security forces but act in 
the name of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, and so on. The largest 
category in B'Tselem's lists, for example, "Civilian Palestinian 
Casualties in the Territories," is therefore an absurd amalgam of 
women, children, the elderly, and young men killed, for example, 
while activating an explosive device against a passing bus 
(Muhammad ˜Imad and Mazin Badawi, killed January 31, 2002, 
in an attack for which Hamas subsequently claimed 
responsibility).15 Indeed, Palestinian attackers have been listed as 
civilians even when they have been killed while wearing Israeli 
uniforms (e.g., attacks of October 2 and 26, 2001). Israeli security 
forces are, of course, all members of a conventional armed force 
and so, by definition, are classed as combatants - even if they 
were not killed in combat.
Because B'Tselem makes no distinction between combatant and 
noncombatant civilians, there is a fundamental mismatch between 
the structure of the B'Tselem data and the structural 
characteristics of the conflict. The lists engage in a statistical 
deceit of the highest order since they structure the data in a way 
that prevents true comparison of Israeli and Palestinian civilian 
deaths. This, in turn, instantly inflates the number of Palestinian 
civilians killed, directly implicating Israeli policy.
Rather than adopt these specious categories, we therefore 
substitute a more inductive approach that first identifies sectors of 
the population that are highly unlikely to include combatants, and 
then explores mortality in those groups.
PA chairman Yasir Arafat himself, in a speech in Doha, identified 
the three subgroups whose deaths are emotive: children, women, 
and the elderly. This provides us with our starting point. Women 
and the elderly, we assume, can safely be considered 
noncombatants during the period under survey, since there were 
no reports that members of these groups had been involved in 
fighting. (Only on January 29, 2002 - two days before the end of 
the period under survey - did the first female suicide bomber 
detonate herself.)
Children are more problematic, however, since there is 
considerable evidence that children of various ages have been 
heavily involved in the violence. It is crucial to review that 
evidence.
A standard Israeli position since September 2000 has been that (a) 
young Palestinian teens and children actively participate in violent 
activities, especially in the throwing of Molotov cocktails and 
stones; and (b) Palestinian gunmen have frequently fired at Israeli 
positions from among these young demonstrators, inviting Israeli 
return fire.16 Journalists, non-partisan international observers, and 
human rights monitors have tended to agree with these claims. In 
August 2000, before the outbreak of the violence, The New York 
Times reported the existence of summer camps in which 27,000 
Palestinian children had participated the past summer, learning 
guerrilla tactics, how to operate firearms, practicing kidnapping, 
etc.17 In October 2000, the United Nation's Children's Fund 
(UNICEF) urged the PA to take energetic measures to discourage 
those under 18 years of age from participating in any violent 
action because such action places them at risk.18 In an early 
B'Tselem report, for example, a foreign journalist reports filming 
confrontations between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in 
El-Bireh in October 2000: 
    Suddenly a blue commercial vehicle appeared and stopped 
    around 20 meters away from us, some 30 meters from 
    young Palestinians who were at the front of the 
    demonstration. Three Palestinians, 20 to 30-years-old, 
    were inside. They called to the children, gave orders, and 
    distributed Molotov cocktails. I asked my photographer to 
    film it. One of the children noticed, shouted out a warning, 
    and within 15 seconds we were surrounded. The vehicle 
    drove ahead 20 meters and stopped. The three men inside 
    ran to the back and snatched the camera from the 
    photographer. One of them shouted, "Kill, kill."19
Indeed, wide media coverage of the PA's use of children even 
generated some debate in Arabic-language newspapers about the 
ethics and religious legality of either allowing or encouraging 
children to attack Israelis and prompted subsequent demands that 
the PA limit the participation of children and close down the 
special training camps.20
In response, Yasir ˜Abd Rabbu, the PA's information minister, 
asserted that, as of October 2000, Palestinian political parties and 
forces decided to prevent children and youngsters under 16 from 
participating and agreed to establish field committees (which will 
be present at the locations) to implement the decision.21 Follow-up 
fieldwork by B'Tselem, however, drawing both on testimonies of 
children participating in demonstrations and direct observation of 
those demonstrations, found no evidence to indicate that these 
official guidelines were being followed. PA officials at these 
locations, the authors asserted, made no serious effort to prevent 
children from reaching the site of demonstrations or from 
participating in them. And they made no attempt to move children 
away so that they would not be injured in Israeli return fire.22 This 
situation appears to have continued through 2001,23prompting a 
reiterated call in November 2001 by UNICEF's special 
representative to the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem for the PA 
to expand measures to discourage those under 18 from 
participating in any violent action.24
In short, Palestinian children have participated in this round of 
violence from its earliest stages. While it is impossible to 
generalize about the frequency of their participation (these, too, 
are case-studies, and so share the flaws listed above), children as a 
group cannot be considered noncombatants. Or at least this is true 
for older children. Only younger children, we can reasonably 
assume, have not been actors in the violence.
In summary, a conservative definition of groups that we can safely 
assume to be noncombatant would include, women, the elderly, 
meaning those past fighting age, arbitrarily set at 55 and over, and 
all children aged less than 10. Together, these groups account for 
69.9 percent of the Palestinian population, and 68.1 percent of the 
Israel population.25
Mortality Distributions
Net of these exclusions, the B'Tselem lists include 1,004 deaths 
between September 29, 2000, and January 31, 2002. Of these, 755 
(75.2 percent) were Palestinian and 249 were Israeli.
Mortality data for both the Palestinian and Israeli populations are 
presented in Table 1. Out of the 755 Palestinian deaths, only 19 
were females aged 10-54, 10 were elderly (males or female older 
than 55), and eight were young children aged less than 10. The 
distribution is, therefore, completely dominated by deaths among 
Palestinian prime-age and adolescent males. They account for 718 
deaths, or 95.1 percent of all Palestinian deaths. Non-combatant 
groups of females, elderly, and young children together account 
for only 4.9 percent of the total number of deaths, even though 
they represent more than two-thirds of the population. These 
mortality patterns, therefore, clearly do not support the Palestinian 
claim that there have been huge numbers of children, female, and 
elderly casualties.
Table 1. Mortality among noncombatant groups as percentage of 
total of national mortality, by demographic group and nationality.
More random mortality patterns with respect to sex and age can 
be seen among Israelis. Of the 249 Israeli deaths, for example, 
there were 67 deaths to females aged 10-54, 33 to the elderly, and 
five to young children. Deaths of Israeli males aged 10-54 
therefore accounted for only a small majority (57.8 percent) of all 
deaths, leaving 105 deaths (42.2 percent) in the noncombatant 
categories.
These data also suggest that there is a complete inversion of the 
combatant versus non-combatant distribution. This is shown 
explicitly in Figure 1, which presents the distribution of deaths 
among adult males, females, and the elderly. It shows that while 
83.3 percent of all deaths among males aged 10-54 have been 
Palestinian, 77.9 and 76.7 percent, respectively, of all female and 
elderly deaths in the 16-month period have been Israeli. This is a 
highly significant crossover in the distribution.
Figure 1: Distribution of mortality among men, women, and the 
elderly, by nationality.
Nor do the data support another frequent argument: that 
Palestinian noncombatant deaths inevitably result from Israeli 
missile attacks on, or shelling of military targets in, civilian areas. 
Of the 37 Palestinian noncombatant deaths, only five (two 
women, one older person, and two children) were caused by a 
shell, missile, or some other type of explosion. All others were 
caused by gunshot.
Conclusion
Palestinian claims, journalistic summaries, Kofi Annan's 
comments, and instances of excessive force to the contrary, the 
mortality data show no sign of systematic targeting of Palestinian 
civilians by Israeli forces. Nor do they show any signs that the 
Israeli forces are systematically failing to avoid targeting 
Palestinian civilians. On the contrary, the fact that less than 5 
percent of Palestinian casualties are either women, elderly, or 
young children, in comparison to more than 40 percent of Israeli 
casualties, supports the key Israeli claim: that the higher number 
of Palestinian deaths reflects the high number of Palestinian 
attacks on Israeli targets, not the reverse. This is the reason for the 
huge bulge in male mortality from late childhood through middle 
age among the Palestinians.
The data also suggest that Israeli and Palestinian military tactics 
in this conflict are completely dissimilar. Israel appears to have 
systematically targeted Palestinian combatants, while the latter 
have been more concerned with targeting any Israeli, combatant 
or civilian. If Kofi Annan, the editors of The New York Times, 
Time, and others are interested in retailing more than Palestinian 
rhetoric, they should acknowledge this point and cease drawing 
invalid parallels between Israeli and Palestinian tactics. They also 
need to rethink the simplistic assumption that firing upon 
combatants in civilian areas is necessarily indiscriminate and 
causes high numbers of noncombatant casualties. Even in built-up 
areas, it is possible to wage discriminating warfare.
More generally, the differences in Israeli and Palestinian mortality 
highlighted in this paper suggest that opinion-makers, leaders, and 
commentators in particular, need to extrapolate more warily from 
various instances of excessive or indiscriminate use of force and 
also cast a more critical eye over single aggregates. Put another 
way, responsible commentators must use data responsibly. At a 
minimum, this means asking about the legitimacy of given types 
of generalization and highlighting heterogeneity in statistical 
distributions. In this case, we think, the heterogeneous mortality 
patterns signal a fundamental difference between Israeli and 
Palestinian military cultures. One side appears to draw a careful 
distinction between combatants and others. The other does not. 
    Alexander A. Weinreb is National Institutes of Child 
    Health and Human Development (NICHD) Postdoctoral 
    Fellow at the Population Research Center & NORC, 
    University of Chicago. Avi Weinreb is financial journalist 
    at Globes,Israel's business newspaper.
1 Kofi Annan, United Nations Security Council, Mar. 11, 2002, 
SG/SM8159, SC/7325.
2 The New York Times, Mar. 12, 2002.
3 Time, Mar. 12, 2002.
4 "Courage to Refuse, Combatant's Letter," at 
http://www.seruv.org.il.
5 Yasir Arafat, 2001, speech to the meeting of the ministers of 
foreign affairs of the Organization of Islamic Conference, Doha, 
Qatar, May 26, 2001, at http://www.palestine-
pmc.com/statments/26_5_2001_arafat_speech.html.
6 B'Tselem press release, "29.7.01: In Broad Daylight: Abuse of 
Palestinians by IDF Soldiers on July 23, 2001," at 
http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/2001/010729.asp; 
and Excessive Force: Human Rights Violations during IDF 
Actions in Area A (Jerusalem: B'Tselem, 2001), at 
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Excessive_Force_Eng.doc.
7 Associate Press, personal communication, Mar. 5 2002.
8 Data at the Israeli foreign ministry at http://www.israel-
mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ia50.
9 It is normal for data sets to include some error, but it has to be 
significant in scale or biased in its distribution to affect results in 
the type of simple bivariate analysis that we conduct here. These 
issues are discussed extensively by Richard A. Zeller and Edward 
G. Carmines, Measurement in the Social Sciences: The Link 
between Theory and Data (New York: Cambridge University 
Press, 1980).
10 "About B'Tselem," at 
http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/index.asp.
11 See PA reports, at http://www.pna.net, and Palestinian NGO 
reports, at 
http://www.lawsociety.org/Intifada2000/articles/btselem.htm and 
http://www.phrmg.org/monitor2001/feb2001.htm.
12 Of these 47, there was one woman and one bomber aged more 
than 40, so their exclusion has no effect on the overall age-and 
sex-specific mortality patterns described below.
13 The totals in these last three categories are from "Summary of 
Palestinian Fatalities, 29/09/2000 to 02/03/2002," Palestinian 
Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG), at 
http://www.phrmg.org/#Summary%20of%20Palestinian%20fatalit
ies, as accessed on Mar. 5, 2002.
14 "Road Accidents with Casualties, and Casualties by Severity," 
Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, 2002, at 
http://www.cbs.gov.il/hodaot2002/21_02_17t1.htm.
15 Hamas communiqué, at 
http://65.165.234.54/hamas/communiques/comm_text/2002/31jan
02.htm.
16 "A Year of Violence: Overview of the Violence in the 
Territories, September 2000-September 2001," Israel Defense 
Forces, 2001, at http://www.idf.il/geut/english/main.html.
17The New York Times, Aug. 3, 2000.
18 Statement by Carol Bellamy, UNICEF executive director, to the 
Special Session of the Commission on Human Rights, at 
http://www.unicef.org/newsline/00prmideast.htm.
19 Illusions of Restraint: Human Rights Violations during the 
Events in the Occupied Territories, 29 September-2 December 
2000 (Jerusalem: B'Tselem, 2000), at 
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Illusions_of_Restraint_Eng.zip
, p. 42.
20 Ash-Sharq al-Awsat, Oct. 27, 2000, at 
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP
14700;Al-Hayat,Apr. 16, 2001, at 
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP
20601.
21 Illusions of Restraint, p. 19.
22 Ibid.,p. 14.
23 Dougherty, Jon E. and David Kupelian, "Children of the Jihad: 
Palestinian Kids Raised for War Taught to Hate, Kill Jews 
through ˜Sesame Street'-Type TV Show," WorldNet Daily, Nov. 3, 
2000, at 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17
707.
24 UNICEF press release, Nov. 15, 2001, at 
http://www.unicef.org/newsline/01pr87.htm.
25 These proportions are based on data from the Palestinian 
Bureau of Statistics, covering population in the territories (i.e., 
combined West Bank and Gaza) in the 1997 Palestinian census, 
and from the Israeli Census Bureau, covering Israel's population in 
2000.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Sep 25 2002 - 13:28:58 MDT